BOARD OF WATER SUPPLY
COUNTY OF MAUI
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MEETING


Held at the Kahului Shopping Center, Kaahumanu Avenue, 
Kahului, Maui, Hawaii, commencing at 9:00 a.m. on 
April 23rd, 2002.

REPORTED BY:   LYNANN NICELY, RPR/RMR/CSR #354
IWADO COURT REPORTERS, INC.

A P P E A R A N C E S

COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
Peter Rice, Chairman
Kent Hiranaga  
Jonathan Starr
Michael Victorino
Ginnie Parsons
Howard Nakamura

STAFF PRESENT:
David Craddick, Director 
Ed Kushi, Corporation Counsel
Mike Quinn
Herb Kogasaka
Ellen Kraftsow
Fran Nago, Board Secretary

           
CHAIRMAN RICE:  Call to order the Committee of 
the Whole of the Board of Water Supply, Maui County.  
We are in the Kahului Shopping Center.  It's 9 AM on 
Tuesday, April 23rd, and present -- I would like to 
introduce new board member Virginia Parsons, welcome.  
Howard Nakamura, Kent Hiranaga, Jonathan Starr and 
myself, Peter Rice.
 Okay.  We are here today to discuss -- to have 
a discussion regarding Central Maui source 
availability.  And I would like us to spend the next 
two hours talking about it.  I don't know that we need 
to -- we're not here necessarily to make a decision 
today and I anticipate we may need more meetings of 
the Committee of the Whole as we discuss this issue.  
It's an important issue. 
 Mr. Craddick, at our last meeting -- welcome, 
Mr. Victorino.  Let me take a minute and introduce 
Mr. Victorino, our other new member of the Board of 
Water Supply.

MR. VICTORINO:  Thank you, Mr. Rice.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  At the last meeting, we spoke 
to the director about notice that he had given 
regarding information sessions and I believe the 
director would like to provide to the board some 
information that he thought was appropriate for those 
sessions, so we will hear that later in the meeting. 
 At this time I would like to ask the members 
of the public if there is any testimony regarding this 
issue at this time.  And if so, we can start from the 
right to the left.  And Mr. Williamson, I think you're 
first. 

MR. SHEPHERD:  Mr. Chairman, as a matter of 
procedure, don't you think you might have this thing 
backwards?  The proponents of this particular meeting 
should make their presentation and then we, the public 
out here, should have their time to say something.  
Because we don't know what they're up to.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  This is a general discussion 
meeting.  We'll give you a chance to say something 
again, if you would like, after Mr. Craddick makes his 
presentation.

MR. SHEPHERD:  I still think you've got it ass backwards. 

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Well, normally at our meetings 
in our normal procedure is to have testimony from the 
public first.  So there may be some people who want to 
give testimony and leave, so we will continue with 
that procedure.  Like I said, we will give you a 
chance to speak later.  We're not here to stifle 
anybody's opinion.  We want a good discussion. 
Mr. Williamson?

MR. WILLIAMSON:  Good morning.  My name is Jim 
Williamson.  I hope you can hear me.  I represent the 
Maui Meadows Homeowners Association.  As you know, we 
are the petitioner to the State Water Commission to 
designate the Iao Aquifer as a state water management 
area.  We agree with the United States Geological 
Survey that there is a serious overdrafting of the Iao 
Aquifer.  All the observation wells in the aquifer 
show depleting water levels since 1990.  At the same 
time, the altitude of the transition zone between the 
saltwater and the fresh water lenses continue to rise 
at a rate of about 8 to 10 feet per year.  This 
aquifer is in trouble and the only solution is to 
reduce the demand on it by immediately developing an 
independent water source. 
 We are not privy to the details of Director 
Craddick's plan for the development of new sources for 
the water supply of Central and South Maui.  However, 
if the immediate plan is to continue drilling wells in 
the immediate area of the North Waihee wells, 
including [inaudible], it's a bummer.  It has not and 
will not relieve the Iao Aquifer. 
 There is enough evidence that North Waihee and 
Iao are closely hydraulically connected and the new 
wells are simply an extension of the Iao well system.  
They cannot be counted on to reduce the sustainable 
yield deficit.  If production wells are to be drilled 
in the North Waihee aquifer, they must be located as 
close to Kahakuloa as possible, at least two to three 
miles from the [inaudible] wellfield.  This is a 
potential short-term solution. 
 A specific plan should be prepared by the 
water department for developing long-term solutions.  
What comes to mind is the East Maui water source and 
potentially building wells in the C. Brewer land which 
is up for sale.  Also, of course there is always the 
alternative, desalinization. 
 The point is that the water department never 
has, but must, come to grips with this prime job of 
planning for its resources.  It can't continue the 
procrastination of the past while at the same time 
water meters are being issued at break neck speed.  It 
has to stop. 
 With respect to water quality in the Iao 
Aquifer wells, Mokuhau and Waiehu Heights have high 
chloride concentrations.  The Department of Health 
allowable limit for chlorides is 250 milligrams per 
liter.  The concentration in pump number 2 at Mokuhau 
reached 450 milligrams per liter and it has been shut 
down for some time.  Chloride levels in pumps 1 and 3 
have occasionally reached 240 to 250 milligrams per 
liter.  Saltwater intrusion at Waiehu pump 1 has 
increased to 193 milligrams per liter, according to 
the latest USGS data report. 
 Although these wellfields have abnormally high 
chloride levels, the water department supplies water 
to its customers by diluting the more salty water with 
the fresher sources, to result in a very acceptable 
water quality product.  However, this dilution 
procedure is considered to be a questionable water 
supply practice.  What has to be done is to stop 
overpumping the aquifer so that the [inaudible] at 
Mokuhau and Waiehu Heights is eliminated.  Otherwise 
pretty soon other wells will also suffer saltwater 
intrusion.  Thank you. 

MR. RICE:  Thank you, Mr. Williamson. 
Are there any questions by board members of 
Mr. Williamson?  Mr. Nakamura. 

MR. NAKAMURA:  One question, Mr. Williamson.  
Thank you for your interest.  I got a little 
distracted when you had recommendation for a 
short-term solution.  I'm sorry, what was that?

MR. WILLIAMSON:  Short-term solution was that 
if we have a drill in the North Waihee aquifer area 
with the well to be removed some two to three miles 
from the present wellfield so the influence of those 
wells would not be felt at Iao.

MR. NAKAMURA:  Thank you.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Thank you, Mr. Williamson. Mr. Sturtz? 

MR. STURTZ:  My name is Ron Sturtz and I'm 
president of Maui Tomorrow and we consider ourselves a 
resource to the board as a community and we're here to 
help you make informed and responsible decisions  
about managing water resources. 
 Consistent with that, I would like to hand out 
to the board members a couple maps that I just 
received myself moments ago.  As you know, we have our 
Ka Waiola water research project going on and it's 
constantly producing updated information which we 
provide to everybody that's involved.  And so I have 
here two sets of maps.  This will give you a better 
visual feel for precisely the wells that we're talking 
about and the most current information on withdrawal 
from those wells.  You can keep these. 
 David has some [inaudible].  I can't speak to 
the actual data gathering aspects here.  This is being 
done by our staff.  And so if you want to get into 
specific numbers.  My goal again is to provide you 
with resource that can help you conceptualize what 
we're talking about here. 
 The question seemed to be whether or not 
drilling in the Waihee aquifer impacts on the Iao 
Aquifer and the specific locations of the wells as 
they're currently contemplated, whether they draw upon 
a separate distinct aquifer or whether they be drawn 
out from the Iao Aquifer.  The other questions are how 
much water is it realistic to withdraw from Waihee 
aquifer?  What is its actual sustainable capacity?  
Are we exceeding that or not already?  These are all 
questions which you have to ask yourselves as we go 
through this process because they will influence 
[inaudible] your decision as well as whether we 
actually provide optimal resource distribution here or 
whether we end up overdrawing it. 
 There appears to be -- there has been 
testimony from John Mink, who this board relies on, 
ostensibly, at the Board of Water Supply meeting in 
October that based upon the current configuration of 
the wells in the Waihee aquifer, he felt that anything 
more than 4 million gallons a day was unwise, 
congregating all the areas of drawing so close to the 
Iao Aquifer. 
 At present I believe that the numbers of 
current draw exceed 5 million gallons a day, closer to 
5.3 million gallons a day.  So we're already 
overdrawing this particular area. 
 Mr. Williamson suggested the possibility that 
it would be more prudent to spread out the pumping 
much more to the north.  This aquifer on the map 
spreads out over six miles and a suggestion that you 
spread pumping out over one area [inaudible] access to 
the water resources that are there.  And I think that 
may be a prudent thing to consider. 
 There is also the question of how much 
interrelationship there is between the aquifers and 
there is differing opinions about that.  Mr. Craddick 
points out that this is cap rock and there is 
different levels of filtration and seepage that goes 
on.  I don't know if we have an exact number, but it's 
pretty basic common sense that the closer you are to 
another location, the more there will be a connection; 
and the further away you are, the lesser will be that 
connection.  So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to 
figure out if you put all your wells right on the edge 
of the Iao, you're probably drawing water from the Iao. 
 The questions which I guess come up are what's 
going to be the request of the board for financing the 
resources to fund further development and the logical 
question is will these resources be used to improve 
transmission lines between these aquifers or will they 
be used to drill new wells or will they be used to 
bring existing wells on line [inaudible] produce more 
water or will they facilitate the existing water where 
it is now. 
 We're suggesting that you look carefully at 
whether or not it's possible to prudently take more 
water from the Waihee aquifer at this point in time.  
And we suggest there is a lot of information that 
indicates perhaps it's not.  And if you look at John 
Mink on perhaps one side and Bill Meyer on the other 
in terms of the optimist and pessimist, they both 
basically agree more than 4 million gallons is unwise 
right now the way things are currently structured.  
And we're already exceeding that. 
 So these are all important questions to look 
at and these maps will help you to visualize where 
these are and what we're talking about and I'm sure 
Mr. Craddick will have some numbers which might or 
might not alter these numbers.  I think these are 
pretty accurate overall and suggest that you 
[inaudible] to look at.  So I look forward to 
listening to what else you have to say this morning 
and [inaudible].

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Thank you, Ron.  Are there any 
questions?  Yes, Ginnie. 

MS. PARSONS:  Mr. Sturtz, thank you very much, 
could you qualify for the record your educational 
background and your professional history?

MR. STURTZ:  I can.  I've been practicing law 
for 30 years.  The last several years it's been in the 
area of environmental law.  I'm the president of Maui 
Tomorrow.  We are involved in land use planning, 
community design, responsible growth.  One of the 
factors that is taken into consideration is water 
resources because it affects almost everything. 
 I've been on the water board tours of the 
various facilities.  I've met individually with board 
members.  I've worked with Ka Waiola project group.  
And my job as president is sort of to know a little 
bit about everything that's going on and water is a 
big part of the everything.  So I've been educating 
myself through the years, meeting with the board, 
meeting with -- being out on the field and educating 
myself about what the issues are and how best to 
approach them. 
 I view myself as a resource.  I'm not a 
hydrologist per se.  [Inaudible] basic information.  
Most of you aren't either.  So we often put on our 
thinking caps and try to assess what makes sense.  
Most of these things can be clarified and in fact our 
Ka Waiola project is here to clarify the numbers.  We 
have a whole -- we've had decades of history where 
nobody knows really how much water is being taken from 
where.  There is all these independent resources and 
certain people report and certain companies that don't 
report.  So we've been trying to gather the 
information for your benefit, for the public's 
benefit, for the developer's benefit, for everyone's 
benefit to see just what we have and then so we can 
make intelligent choices as to what to do with it.

MS. PARSONS:  Where have you practiced 
environmental law?

MR. STURTZ:  Here in the sense that --

MS. PARSONS:  You're licensed in the state of --

MR. STURTZ:  No, I'm not licensed in the state, so --

MS. PARSONS:  Where are you licensed?

MR. STURTZ:  I'm licensed in the state of 
California and I practice all over the world since I 
practice international law.

MS. PARSONS:  Okay.

MR. STURTZ:  I'm not relying on my legal 
credentials to provide this information to you.  I'm 
relying on my background, my information, my 
intelligence, my sincere concern for these issues and 
the indications I've received in this process over the 
years.

MS. PARSONS:  Environmental law is a vast 
subject.  That's why when you said you were an 
environmental --

MR. STURTZ:  It is.  I don't claim special 
expertise in the area of water other than I've given a 
great deal of attention to it on this island.

MS. PARSONS:  It has to do a lot with the environment.

MR. STURTZ:  It truly does.  Thank you for your questions.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Any other questions for 
Mr. Sturtz?  Thank you, Ron.  Oh, Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR:  I want to have you search back 
your recollection of the meetings where Mr. Mink and I 
believe Mr. Meyer and I think USGS also commented on 
the North Waihee aquifer.  And I know the sustainable 
yield of the entire aquifer is set at 8 million 
gallons.  But you mentioned that we were told to limit 
our take to 4 million gallons or less in the area 
that's been developed.  Do you recollect about that?  
I believe there is a stream, a deep gulch called 
Makamakaole and I'm wondering if you have any other 
recollections about their testimony on that.

MR. STURTZ:  My recollection is merged both 
public testimony and private discussions I've had with 
them over lunch and other meetings.  There is a 
question of optimal use and functional capacity.  The 
consensus as I heard it [inaudible] was that both John 
and Bill agreed that if you're going to aggregate all 
of the well heads over on the south end of the 
aquifer, 4 million gallons was sort of a maximum 
figure that should be looked at.  It was remarkable to 
me they both agreed on something and that was the 
number they chose. 
 The 8 million gallons for the entire aquifer 
was also by an older request analysis process -- I 
forget the exact term.

MR. STARR:  RAM, I believe.

MR. STURTZ:  Yeah, and the RAM process.  And I 
understand there are better mathematical models 
available now and perhaps the board might want to look 
at that.  I believe the USGS is offering to do a 
mathematical model for the board at a cost of 
somewhere between $672,000 which could provide -- if 
you're talking about investing four or five million in 
developing this area, that's not a lot of money to get 
more accurate information.  So, you know, I look at 
that as a possible additional resource of clear 
information.  Did I answer your question?

MR. STARR:  Yes.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Any other questions for 
Mr. Sturtz?   Thank you, Ron.  Anyone else?  Glenn, do 
you want to testify now or you want to wait?

MR. SHEPHERD:  I'll wait. 

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA:  Okay.  Anyone else at this 
point, public testimony?  Okay, Mr. Craddick, you were 
wanting to enlighten the board as to your feelings on 
educating the public, I believe. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Okay.  We've listened to 
several speakers and -- about Iao Aquifer that have 
already been mentioned and subsequent reports 
indicated that the speakers may not have been in sync 
with each other.  But even today here, I think finally 
they're starting to realize that all the speakers are 
really saying the same thing.  And after a short 
overview, I believe you'll be able to determine for 
yourself which is correct or whether they're all 
correct, just talking about different things.  
 When somebody says [inaudible], I don't know 
if it conjures up any image in your mind, but I have a 
little demonstration here that I hope gets this very 
clear in your mind. 
 Now, first of all, let me ask if everybody 
understands that when one object floats on another, it 
occurs because one item is liquid and the other is a 
solid which after displacing its weight there is still 
some of the solid volume above the level of the 
liquid.  And to make this comment relevant to today's 
discussion, I'm going to take a piece of ice and stick 
it in here.  It will crack when it goes in there.  I 
don't know.  We'll try it.  Do you see what's going on 
there?  Now, ice has a somewhat unique property from 
metals in that metal, when you cool it down, it 
contracts.  Ice, when you cool it down, it expands.  
So basically this ice ends up being less dense than 
the water that it's sitting in.  You can see how much 
of it is below the water level there.  I measured this 
before I put the ice in, it was one and three-quarter 
inches from the top here.  It's now about one and a 
quarter inches from the top.  So it came out about a 
half inch.  And that half inch is equal to about 100 
cubic inches.  Now, that's the situation anyway with 
the ice there. 
 Now, if you get in your mind why fresh water, 
which is 62.4 pounds per cubic foot, will float on 
saltwater, which is 4 pounds per cubic foot.  This is 
frozen, so it's solid.  When you've got two liquids 
sitting on one another, they won't necessarily -- if 
you just poured fresh water on here, it would all 
blend in and have about the same salinity.  So in the 
aquifer, is there somehow a container for what's even 
down in the aquifer.  And I don't know how many of you 
are familiar with Big Springs in Nahiku.  Does 
everybody know what that is, heard of that?  Big 
Springs is a flow of water out in Nahiku that flows 
about 19 billion gallons a day out of a just out of a 
wall of the mountain.  It's out in this area out here, 
right around this area.  All these wells that were 
drilled were trying to find that source of water.  
They were never successful. 
Now, what you do have down there is a lot of 
rock similar to this.  I'll put this inside here.  May 
not or may not float.  It doesn't.  Feel that air 
coming out of there.  That's the water filling up that 
rock.  Now, it's gone from about one and 
three-quarters to one and five-eighths, a quarter-inch 
difference in the water level.  Not very much 
difference.  And this a comparison of this rock to the 
block of ice, the rock is 268 cubic inches, the ice 
was 350.  So there is about 100 cubic inches more than 
the ice than this.  So it stands to reason the ice 
would raise it a little bit more.  But on the same 
token, the displacement of this rock has not brought 
the water level up to where you would expect it to be 
if the rock didn't hold any water. 
 Now, the next thing is this just means that 
the water can go into the rock.  But the rock has a 
definite limit and that limit is our shoreline.  Once 
you get out into the ocean, there is no rock anymore.  
So at that point the ocean level is what determines 
what the water level is going to be.  Now, as water 
flows through pipelines, the more water that you flow 
through the pipeline, the more resistance there is to 
that flow occurring.  It's not a whole lot different 
with the rocks.  The more you try to move through 
there, the higher the head loss.  And this friction, 
as I'll call it, serves to prevent the rain that soaks 
down through this rock from just immediately flowing 
right out into the ocean.  That combined with the 
density difference between the fresh water and 
saltwater and the container being provided by the 
rocks, the water effectively floats on the saltwater.  
 And this is what [inaudible] theorized.  The 
[inaudible] above and below sea level and the ever 
increasing thickness and farther away from the ocean 
where the water level is measured.  The ratio of that 
fresh water to saltwater is about 1 to 40 feet.  I 
didn't measure the ratio on that ice, but you see how 
much of it is below the water and it's the same with 
density difference between saltwater and fresh water 
is very, very close. 
 Now, because these are both liquids, there is 
mixing down at the bottom.  It's not a solid 
interface.  There is a gradual transition.  We see 
this change in the water quality as the state monitor 
well.  You've seen what the chloride changes with 
depth.  And the reason for that is because water is 
continually flowing to the ocean.  We've got different 
processes.  And the fact that rain is continually 
replenishing the groundwater and as everybody said the 
spacing of the wells and the pumps. 
 Without -- look at what happens vertically 
here with the water level when it's -- when you've got 
the rock saturated with water.  But now let's try to 
look at what happens horizontally because horizontally 
is the connection between the aquifer.  You can see 
all the aquifers that have been designated around the 
island and if you'll note -- another map here.  
 Actually mark on here, this is a relief map, the 
vertical height as a two-to-one exaggeration over what 
it is naturally out there.  And I've marked on here 
Iao and North Waihee.  And what it does is it's 
following the ridge line between Waikapu and Waihee 
valley and it follows the ridge line between Iao and 
Waihee Valley.  Now, those ridge lines, I've heard 
some people say they're politically decided, but I 
have a tough time figuring how politics put those 
ridges where they were, but that's a decision for you 
to make.  I just point it out there for your 
information. 
 Now, let's take a closer look at what USGS and 
John Mink said.  I actually have the minutes from the 
meeting here.  This is Steve Anthony, says, "First 
it's important to distinguish between the regulatory 
level of sustainable yield and the amount of 
groundwater of acceptable quality that can be pumped 
on a long-term basis using an existing 
infrastructure." 
 John Mink says, "Let me say one more thing 
about the yield, the sustainable yields.  They're 
based on an optimal development that is the best means 
of extraction." 
 Now, I don't have Meyer's comments from that 
meeting, but at the council meeting basically a 
similar presentation that was given to the board was 
given to the council and at that council meeting he 
says, "It would appear the current volume of 20 
million gallons a day with the current distribution of 
wells does not work.  The staff has been telling this 
to the board since 1991.  And this is something that 
must be dealt with in all deliberations.  The 
discussion provided, however, requires that the 
aquifer be managed well by well and the board is the 
only withdrawer of water from the Iao aquifer and they 
have lot a lot of options.  As pumps fail, they can be 
replaced with lower pumping rates and more wells can 
be drilled.  These are simple management techniques 
that can be implemented.  The water available may be 
more or less than the State Water Commission stated 
numbers, depending on what you do.  I believe the 
program presented in drilling the well in Waikapu, 
drilling a well between Waikapu and Iao, and drilling 
another well between the JV wells and the Waihee, as 
well as providing additional monitor wells, are all 
things that need to be done to adequately protect the 
aquifer.  All of these things can be modeled to look 
at the effects of different scenarios over time, but 
you do have to have the information to put in the 
model.  To make the model with no information is not 
much help.  And USGS, in their presentation to the 
board, also went through that part of it. 
 Anyways, any efforts you make to increase the 
recharge of existing sources and protect the watershed 
that collects a lot of water will also have a positive 
effect on the availability of water.  But I'll leave 
it up to you to determine whether everything must be 
shut down in the interim while management items are 
implemented. 
 And I've got also here a slightly different 
report than the one we put out to the board.  The one 
we put out to the board, I can tell you what I use it 
for and I use it to watch what the electricity usage 
is and what water is pumped out of the hole.  And if 
there is something wrong in there, I can pick it up 
relatively quickly. 
 It also, by doing some math, will tell you 
what the percentage use of the aquifer is.  Now, 
you've heard from the council that they don't like 
getting that information without the numbers being 
calculated and presented for them and Ellen has 
prepared a form here that does that.  It only looks 
back from three months and is comparing and the reason 
why we look back three months is because the rule that 
we have for management of the Iao Aquifer looks back 
three months to look at the chloride levels.  In 
Mokuhau, the rules says 160.  The highest is 120.  And 
that's 503, [inaudible] 501 [inaudible] 53 parts per 
million.  The Waiehu Heights wells are 160.  The 
[inaudible] and 515 is 91.  The Waiehu Heights is 576.  
The Joint Venture wells, the caution number is 80.  
The [inaudible] in 578 is 37.  [Inaudible] is 21.  And 
I guess we don't have information for 557.  We've had 
off there for a couple of month. 
 The regulatory level for Wailuku shaft is 80.  
The number in there is 53.  Those are current numbers 
as of April this year.  And the pumping from the 
groundwater is currently at 83 percent of the 
sustainable yield and 16.65 million gallons a day on 
the 12-month moving average.  So if you have those --. 
Anyways, my point in this presentation is that 
yes, there are things that we need to do.  I'll leave 
it up to you whether you feel it's necessary to close 
everything down while we do those things.  But this is 
-- in my estimation, people are not really saying 
different things.  Everyone is saying the same thing.  
And it's just how you go about the management process 
of doing the things that need to be done to protect 
the water sources.  So that's it.  Thank you.  Is 
there any questions?

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Questions of Mr. Craddick from the board? 
 Okay.  As I promised, anyone who would now 
from the public like to give testimony after hearing 
what Mr. Craddick said.  Glenn, do you want to speak 
at this point?

MR. SHEPHERD:  And for Ginnie Parsons' 
interest, since you're new here and also for the new 
member here, I live in Wailuku Heights.  I'm a 
geologist.  I've been a geologist for -- since 1949.  
I've learned a lot and am learning a lot here today, 
too.  But what I'm learning is that we are not 
adhering to geologic principles and this is going to 
lead you astray in making a decision if you don't 
understand the geology involved. 
 There is a lot of pressure on this board 
because of this issue.  And I know that you all don't 
understand all aspects of hydrogeology, hydraulics, 
how it interplays with geology, and how it controls 
what we have. 
 In a lot of cases here in the past number of 
years, there has been a lot of pressure drawdown on 
the reservoir.  And the degree of coning, which is the 
-- if you don't understand coning, come and see me 
after the meeting.  But it's simply that the fresh 
water is being displaced by the saltwater.  And as a 
well penetrates into that aquifer which contains fresh 
water floating on top of saltwater, the saltwater 
level rises up.  At the same time, the water level, 
fresh water, gets lowered.  And those are two facts 
that you've got to deal with.  That's what's happening 
to the Iao Aquifer.  The water level of the fresh 
water is going down and the saltwater is going up.  
And that should tell you that you are getting to the 
point where it's going to be detrimental to the entire 
aquifer if you continue pumping at the same rate. 
 Water flows.  It flows through the rocks, as 
David has shown you.  And I want to digress here a 
little bit about David.  He's a damn good engineer, 
but somewhere along the line he didn't get the 
geologic aspects to understand what's going on with 
our aquifer.  He is the best water director we've ever 
had since I came here in 1970.  But I part company 
with him when his interpretations of the geology is involved. 
 Now, one thing that he has promoted in the 
past that we have to spread out the pumping in Iao 
Aquifer.  Iao aquifer is getting saltier and the water 
levels are going down.  It should tell you something.  
Irrefutable fact that something is not in equilibrium.  
But he says we need to spread out our pumping of the 
Iao Aquifer.  But if you take a look at that map and 
where he's got the wells, they're all clustered.  That 
doesn't spread out the pumping very well.  I think it 
should be spread out.  At the same time in that the 
water levels are going down and the saltwater 
increasing in a given well, that there should be a 
restriction on the amount of water that comes out of 
those wells which are being produced. 
 I don't know what the reason for this 
particular meeting is with the objective, but I could 
probably focus in on things a little bit better.  
There is a map of the geology of Maui.  It was done by 
Stern and McDonald back in the '40s.  It's the 
definitive map showing the geology from a surface 
standpoint.  And he draws these aquifers boundaries 
here for reasons which I simply don't understand.  It 
just like, well, let's throw it this way, let's draw 
it that way.  There is no basis in fact for putting 
that particular line along there -- those boundaries.  
Now, David has said in the past that, oh, there is a 
ridge that comes down there so we're going to call it 
the aquifer on that side of the ridge one aquifer and 
the other side we're going to call it -- as far as the 
subsurface is concerned, it's completely irrelevant 
what's on the surface.  It's all the same aquifer.  He 
shows a Waihee aquifer with Iao Aquifer here.  How he 
got those lines on there or how those administrative 
lines were put on there is completely beyond me and 
nobody has been able to explain it in terms of the 
principles of geology.  He says all right, the water 
goes down this side of the ridge to over here and then 
it goes into that aquifer.  Or the surface water goes 
off here into that aquifer.  It's still the same 
aquifer at depth underneath those ridges, those 
mountains and everything.  It's one big aquifer.  And 
it has to be looked at in that sense if you're going 
to develop your water resources in a sensible manner.  
But to invoke ridges which are we call geomorphic 
features, which are just a surface feature, as one 
side of an aquifer is fallacious. 
 Now, if you don't believe that particular map 
up there, which you can draw if you will imaginary 
lines around it and say okay, this is the Iao aquifer.  
I want you to -- this board to go out and get a 
geologist and send him out in the field and tell him 
we want to know where the boundary is between the 
Waihee and the Iao Aquifer.  This will help you 
immensely in how to administer and develop your water 
resources.  I know three on this island can do it.  
I'm not -- I take myself out, although I've done many 
years of field geology.  There is three guys here on 
this island, one doctorate and two with master's 
degrees in geology who can do this for you.  And I'll 
make damn sure that they get out there and do the job, 
too.  But we're just looking at things through 
rose-colored glasses when you think that we were not 
damaging the Iao Aquifer. 
 When a reservoir of water, oil, or whatever it 
is is over pumped, it takes many, many years for it to 
come back to its original status.  It takes many 
years.  So if we continue to overdraft on the Iao 
Aquifer, we are sitting here and allowing that -- you 
are allowing that reservoir to be screwed up for the 
future and that's something that we don't want to do. 
I'm open to questions.  Yes, ma'am. 

MS. PARSONS:  Are you suggesting that we hire 
a geophysicist and have him do an independent study?

MR. SHEPHERD:  Well, I think that you should.  
But I don't think that -- you see, the water 
department doesn't have a hydrologist.  It doesn't 
have a groundwater geologist.  He has to go out on the 
outside to get that information.  And I spent, oh, 
maybe nine years in the consulting side of geology 
with international concerns and I know that a client 
likes to hear something that goes along with their 
pre-ideas, if you will.  They like to have that told 
to them by a consultant.  And that's what David has 
done.  He's gone to the outside and he's told David 
what he would like to hear, that the Iao Aquifer is 
healthy, it's not being damaged and is not under the 
gun and -- that's not right. 
 Now, he can go to the university or he can go 
to these three other geologists on the island here 
that I know of and have them do a job on this 
particular problem to help you make that particular 
decision.  But as I've said, David is a damn good 
engineer.  But when it comes to understanding geology 
and geologic principles involved, he was behind the 
door.  And he may say well, I understand, I've been 
drilling wells for umpteen years.  Great.  That's all 
part of the act to understand those sorts of things. 
 But I think this board should go to the 
outside and get an independent position and not go to 
the consultant that David has been leaning on for 
years.  Now, the guy that he's been leaning on, he's a 
nice guy, I like him, he's one of us [inaudible].  But 
he's been giving him the wrong information necessary 
to develop and keep the Iao Aquifer healthy. 

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR:  First of all, where did you get this map?

MR. SHEPHERD:  I got that from one of the 
authors, Gordon McDonald.  When I told him I was going 
to Maui, he said, "Here."

MR. STARR:  Did that come out of a book?  Is 
that from the Stearns and McDonald book?

MR. SHEPHERD:  That's from the Stearns and 
McDonald book.  Where is it?

MR. STARR:  I just wanted people to see this 
because this is a whole --

MR. SHEPHERD:  I shouldn't be so loose with 
it.  I'll sell it to you for about a thousand bucks.  
It's coming apart at the seams.  But there is the 
issue.  I don't know whether David has a copy or not, 
do you?  Read it. 

MR. STARR:  Okay.  Another question here.  And 
my interest -- I think everyone agrees that Iao 
aquifer, we cannot extract more water from it than we 
already are.  Whether it should be less or not, that's 
-- I don't really want to get into that discussion 
today.  But I think that that's something that just 
about everyone from USGS and John Mink and all of us 
agree is that we can't really pull more than say the 
18 million gallons we're pulling out of Iao Aquifer. 
 I think that what the point of interest is is 
that for the Central and South Maui system, the only 
other source in addition to the boundaries of Iao that 
we have to extract water from is the North Waihee 
aquifer.  And we've heard that we've only exploited a 
portion, a small portion of the North Waihee aquifer, 
that area south of Makamakaole Gulch between Waihee 
and Makamakaole.  And we've also heard from John Mink 
and others that from that area that we've currently 
exploited, we should not be taking more than 4 million 
gallons a day. 
 Now, I see by the charts -- David just gave us 
a new -- a new kind of chart that I believe he said 
he's giving to the county council.  Unfortunately, the 
board has never seen this.  And it doesn't agree with 
the one that he gives us every month.  So say for the 
month of March, I have two figures, the one from his 
new chart which says the -- it was 4.63 million 
gallons a day, and then the normal one that the board 
gets where if I add it up and I subtract the Iao 
tunnel, I get 5.12 million gallons a day.  This is all 
coming from --

MS. PARSONS:  In all fairness, the March was 
given to us before the end of March and this is just 
the beginning of April.  So if those numbers don't 
jive -- I look at February and January to make my 
assumptions.

MR. STARR:  Okay.  But they don't -- between the one we get -- 

MS. PARSONS:  I'm just saying if you're going 
to make assumptions on anything, look at January and 
February, not at March or April -- is too close.

MR. STARR:  They also don't get up.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Let's let Jonathan go first.

MR. STARR:  But anyway.  The question is since 
-- if we take either the 4.6 or 5.1 million gallons a 
day, you feel that we can extract more water than that 
from this southern portion of North Waihee than we 
already are?  

MR. SHEPHERD:  Oh, sure, you can take more 
water out.  But you're damaging your reservoir, too.  
You stand that chance of damaging your reservoir.  And 
they take a long time to heal. 
 Now, when you flash this map up there, where 
are all the wells?  Hell, they're all alongside roads, 
places that you can get to.  There is no spreading out 
of taking the water from the Iao Aquifer.  And that's 
something that should be looked at. 
 There may be -- this is a flat ass statement.  
There may be more water available on Maui than we can 
possibly use, but we don't know it because there have 
been no studies on it.  There may be a lot less than 
the amounts that I'm alluding to.  But we don't know.  
We simply haven't got the information. 
 What David should do is go get a competent 
geological consulting firm or group of geologists to 
come up with a study to tell the board -- and I say 
the board -- what are their findings about the 
position of water on this island?  
 I don't agree with you that we couldn't find 
more water up there on West Maui.  Easy.  Hell, I've 
got some ideas, too.  But again, it takes some 
nitpicking studies to come up with a decision to do 
that.  Sure, I'd drill a tunnel clear into the head 
waters of Iao.  I would be building filtration ponds 
alongside Iao Stream so that the waters can be 
percolating down into the Iao Aquifer instead of being 
channeled off into the ocean along concreted channels.  
Boy, that's really stupid.  I mean, you took all the 
water and shot it out there in the ocean that should 
be going in the ground. 
 David could start a project of putting 
infiltration ponds above the concreted area of Iao 
Aquifer.  One day I went by down at Happy Valley and I 
said geez, there is a lot of water going down that 
place.  I went down to the USGS and said how much 
water is going down that channel today.  Oh, about 52 
million gallons a day.  Right out to the ocean.  No 
chance to get into the underground.  And that's a 
crime. 
 The Corps of Engineers that built that thing, 
it was a porky deal back in the '70s.  Today, no, they 
made a huge mistake.  You talk to any Corps of 
Engineers engineer from their headquarters back in 
Vicksburg, Mississippi, yeah, that was a big mistake, 
they didn't do us a favor at all.  Sure, it brought 
some money into the community by construction, but we 
shot ourselves in the foot doing it. 
 There's a lot of other things that could be 
done.  But the focus has been just those few wells 
right in there and those few wells are telling you 
something that the aquifer is not healthy.  And if you 
continue doing it the way you're doing it today, then 
we're all going to be in bad straits in the future.

MR. STARR:  Okay, just to clarify, my question 
is regarding the current infrastructure, the current 
wells, and I believe there is another well planned 
also on the south side of Makamakaole.  How much water 
do you feel is safe to extract out of our current 
infrastructure?  I know there is possible ways of 
getting more from further north and from other 
creative ways.  I'm talking about from what we've got 
right now.

MR. SHEPHERD:  If I told you that figure, I 
wouldn't believe it myself because I don't know.  And 
I don't know anybody that does know.  Because there 
hasn't been adequate studies to do it.  Remember, 
David doesn't have a hydrologist, a groundwater 
geologist, anybody of that particular flair working in 
his department.  He needs that input badly.

MR. STARR:  Thank you.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Any other questions of Mr. Shepherd?

MR. KOGASAKA:  On the map that you produced 
over there on the wall, what does the red indicate on 
the profile?  Can you give us a demonstration how the 
aquifer works within that area?

MR. SHEPHERD:  That's the central caldera 
aspect of where the intrusions came up alongside say 
Haleakala and West Maui, the two red areas that you 
see.  And all the green are the lava flows that came 
out of those eruptive centers.

MR. KOGASAKA:  How does the hydrology work within that area?

MR. SHEPHERD:  What?

MR. KOGASAKA:  The hydrology and the geology 
work within the area.  Is that part of the Iao 
aquifer, how does that relate --

MR. SHEPHERD:  Listen, I don't know where the 
limits of the Iao Aquifer are.  They put lines on 
here, but they're fictitious lines.  And they say 
well, one well on this side of the line is drawing 
from the Iao Aquifer and the one just a stone's throw 
away is drawing from the Waihee Aquifer.  But there is 
no structural or stratographic reason for that line to 
be in that particular place. 
 As I understand it -- and I've questioned many 
people, how did you determine that line?  You get the 
fuzziest answers.  Oh, there is a ridge that goes 
along -- oh, there is a sand dune there.  Those are 
surface features that don't have a damn thing to do 
with the underground.

MR. KOGASAKA:  I'm talking about the red 
section, how does that influence the aquifer?  

MR. SHEPHERD:  Well, if you -- if I'm going to 
do some arm waving geology, as we call it, that means 
you don't have your hard facts that you can prove it, 
but it's theoretical.  I would say that you could go 
into Iao Valley and get lots of water.  It's trapped 
behind dikes.  And that's the rainiest part of the 
island.  It gets what, 250 inches per year up there.  
And if you wanted -- the surface waters that come down 
that stream are simply from aquifers that have been 
topped out that are flowing out on the ground. 
 I don't know whether I answered your question 
or not.  Did I?  You focused on the red points -- 

MR. KOGASAKA:  Yes.

MR. SHEPHERD:  Those are just diagrammatic 
things to indicate that that was a center of eruptions 
that built up the two mountain masses in East Maui and 
West Maui.

MR. KOGASAKA:  [Inaudible] or constraints 
within the underground features that you're alluding to?  

MR. SHEPHERD:  Excuse me, I've been around too 
many 8-inch cannons and I'm 80 years old.  Your 
question now was what?  

MR. KOGASAKA:  Whether that red dikes and 
things are other dikes, are they geographical -- 
geophysical boundaries within the aquifer. 

MR. SHEPHERD:  They can be.  If they're long 
and linear and keep going.  But usually dikes are 
interwoven bunch of things.  Dike here, dike there.  
You take a drive up to Iao Stream and you can see 
those dikes in the out crops there.  Maybe we ought to 
chat later.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Good idea.  Thank you, Glenn.  
Any other questions for Glenn Shepherd? 

MR. SHEPHERD:  Oh, Ms. Parsons, I've got a 
doctorate in geology and geophysics.

MS. PARSONS:  Good.  From where? 

MR. RICE:  Well, I did my BA and MA at UCLA 
and I got my doctorate in the University of Hawaii, 
but it happened to be in marine aspects of geology.

MS. PARSONS:  Who did you work for?

MR. SHEPHERD:  Who did I work for?

MS. PARSONS:  In the past.

MR. SHEPHERD:  That's rather embarrassing, 
I've worked for so damn many people.

MS. PARSONS:  That's a good thing.

MR. SHEPHERD:  I worked for a Honolulu oil 
corporation that was bought out by Phillips.  I left 
and I went to work with another outfit in South 
America -- two outfits in South America.  I ended up 
working for Occidental in China at the time -- I hung 
it up in 1992.  Oh, and the international firms were 
called Petro Consultants.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Ellen, did you have something 
you wanted to wanted to ask Mr. Shepherd?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  No, it was a comment in general, if I may. 

CHAIRMAN RICE:  You want to make a comment in general?

MR. CRADDICK:  I think she was just going to 
clarify that discrepancy between what Jonathan is 
saying --

MS. KRAFTSOW:  Actually, that's not just what 
I wanted to say.  That's not what I wanted to talk about.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  All right.  Go ahead.

MR. SHEPHERD:  You'll find that when you get a 
group of geologists together, seldom that you'll have 
unanimity in the decisions that are brought out unless 
it's so crystal clear that you can't -- when you're 
playing something like this where you don't have all 
the information, it gets dicey making a decision. 
 I've been with geological groups that have 
been discussed and fought and chewed on for months, 
trying to find an answer. 
 Now, if I tell David, hey, you're all wet, 
that doesn't mean that I don't accept some of his 
things that he says.  It gets into the matrix of 
things to arrive at the truth or the closest you can 
get to truth as possible.  So we get some down right 
hot arguments going at times.  But it's good.  We're 
all trying to seek the truth.  And if I raise some 
hackles around here, tough luck.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Thank you, Glenn.  Ellen was 
going to say something.  Thank you, appreciate your 
input. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Okay.  Herb, basically you were 
asking what's this red area here? 

MR. KOGASAKA:  No, the profile on the bottom.

MR. CRADDICK:  Yeah, but that translates to 
this area up here.  You're talking about this right 
here?  Over here?

MR. KOGASAKA:  Yeah.

MR. CRADDICK:  Those are what are known as 
dike areas here.  That is basically the cool magnum.  
It's very, very dense rock.  It's not like the rock 
you see over there with all the holes in it.  Water 
has a hard time flowing through it.  So in these areas 
between those dikes, what happened, as Glenn Shepherd 
said, you will get water forming in there and if you 
penetrate those, you can drain water out.  But that is 
water that normally would drain to a stream, anywhere 
where the stream or valley floor cuts through those 
dikes. 
 The point I wanted to make is what is this 
here because it's a very common feature over the area 
of the Iao.  And that's this area right down here.  
When you look up here, it says "consolidated 
[inaudible] chiefly older alluvium, consisting of 
[inaudible] red, deeply weathered, poorly sorted, 
nearly impermeable, friable conglomerates usually 
forming conspicuous terraces along the principle 
streams."  That is a real wordy definition of cap 
rock.  That's the difference -- a lot of the 
difference between Iao and North Waihee.  Iao has this 
cap rock like Pearl Harbor does.  Waihee does not.  
There is a difference in the water level between these 
two and that's why functionally they manage them as 
two different aquifers. 
 Granted, there may be some -- there is no 
question there is some connection between them because 
we had a break in one of the Waiehu Heights wells 
pipeline in 1991.  They were pumping about 3 million 
gallons a day for about three months.  When that well 
was shut off, six days later when there was no pumping 
going on in Iao, the water level started to rise.  
Now, you can see from that there is a connection 
there.  But it's not a direct one, the minute the pump 
stopped, it started to rise.  And it wasn't a rise 
over here of one foot and a rise over there of one 
foot.  It was a rise here of one foot and a rise over 
there of about half an inch.  But still a measurable 
rise, something you can distinguish. 
 And the other thing that the board may not 
know is that we have put up to personnel -- I changed 
the description of the training officer to one of a 
geologist.  We do have a person on island that was 
part of the crew or team that did the Fortran 
programming for the monitor flow program for the USGS 
and there is a high probability that person would 
apply for the job.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Ellen?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  I guess it's just I've been 
hearing a lot of statements about [inaudible].  I for 
one, I don't think that we really contest that the Iao 
Aquifer has problems and concerns.  And I think that 
the issue is what are we doing about it.  And given a 
situation like that, there are a few obvious things 
one should do about it.  You want to move the pumpage 
away from that aquifer, you want to distribute the 
pumpage better within and around that aquifer, and you 
want to upgrade your monitoring and your watershed 
protection and other protective measures you can do, 
and you want to possibly negotiate with planning or 
something for some managed growth. 
 As far as what we're doing, there is the East 
Maui development plan.  Anybody who looks at an 
aquifer, a regulatory aquifer map -- I'm not going to 
argue the correctness of it, but anybody who looks at 
an aquifer map of the island will know that most of 
the water is in the northeast and that's eventually 
where we have to go to get it. 
 There is an East Maui effort ongoing, as you 
know, it's waiting for the EIS. 
 Waihee, going further in Waihee, whether that 
amounts to distributing the withdrawals better or 
whether that amounts to moving out of Iao is still 
something that we have to do. 
 Now, that Mink recommendation that we use only 
4 million gallons and one half of that aquifer, that 
is something that we are going to try to follow.  But 
to get there, to get to the other half of that aquifer 
involves building a transmission to utilize that, 
which you do as you move outward.  We are using more 
than four, but we're not using that much more than 
four and I would need to check Mink's document, I'm 
not even sure that he's referring to the south half of 
the aquifer when he says that, but to the half maybe 
that we haven't gotten to yet.  But I'm not sure.  I 
would have to check on that. 
 So we are making efforts to distribute the 
withdrawal, whether it be in Waihee or East Maui, 
better.  Also, even within the Iao Aquifer, the 
Waikapu tank site well -- the Waikapu well and the Iao 
tank site well. 
 We do contract and continue to contract for 
monitoring.  We're looking on purchasing watersheds.  
We have watershed protection efforts that we've been 
paying for for years.  We have a wellhead protection 
effort ongoing that many of the very people who are 
criticizing us have been invited to consistently and 
they have never shown up for. 
 And I'm not saying that we're perfect; I think 
there is a lot of improvement.  But I just would like 
to point out that there are plans and they are ongoing 
and there are efforts to protect the aquifer and I 
don't think that this has come out clearly yet.  Thank 
you.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR:  First of all, I would like to say 
that I agree with everything you said and I think it 
was very well said and I appreciate all of the actions 
in all of these directions. 
 My question for you, though, is with the 
existing infrastructure or perhaps adding another well 
-- the next well, which is, you know, in that same 
southern portion of North Waihee, how much more water 
do you think we should be taking from that southern 
portion of North Waihee? 

MS. KRAFTSOW:  Jonathan, I'm not going to 
suggest that we take any more than we're taking.  But 
I believe we have plans this year to work on the 
Maluhia well which is in the north half.

MR. STARR:  I believe that it was in the south 
half and there is plans to move it to the north half, 
which I would like to see.  I do feel we need to go 
forward with moving up.  That's what I'm trying to get at. 
 My concern, though, is with what we've got 
now, you know, how many more hundreds or thousands of 
water meters we can issue before we get new sources on 
line.  And that's my point of concern.  I think you 
share that.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Thank you.  Any other 
questions for Ellen?  We're going to take a quick one-minute recess.

(Brief recess.)

CHAIRMAN RICE:  I'll call the meeting back to 
order.  Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank 
you for calling this meeting.  And I think that right 
now we're getting at the very, very heart of what our 
duties are.  And I can't stress enough how important 
this subject is.  This is the water supply for the 
present and the future for most of the population of 
Maui County, for all of Central and South Maui as far 
as Paia and as far as Wailea, Makena, Maalaea, 
Kahului, Wailuku and all the other fast-growing 
communities. 
 So I think it's very important that we take a 
good look at this and not just a cursory glance  
because if we don't deal with it properly, it will 
come back to haunt us over and over again.  I think 
there are a number of issues here.  And one is where 
we -- to try to understand honestly where we're at 
right now, what supplies of water we have developed 
and what our usage is and how those two fit together. 
 But equally and probably more important is 
where we're going.  And I feel that, you know, if we 
decide that we're at the limit of what we have right 
now, we have to be relentless in trying to find 
additional sources and directions.  And I know we're 
moving in certain directions, but we're not there yet.  
And I think that we have to look at a number of 
different directions so that if one doesn't pan out or 
gets delayed for a long period of time, and we have 
been waiting on East Maui for 10 years -- it might be 
another year, it might be another 10 years, we should 
look for other alternates.  And maybe those should 
include surface water.  Maybe we should be looking at 
some surface water from East Maui of a million or two 
gallons a day possibly at Kamole where we do have the 
rights to some more water.  I don't know if that's a 
solution, but it's something we should look into. 
 Glenn Shepherd suggested other things.  There 
are many roads we can take.  I think we should try to 
look at as many ways as possible so we do find a road 
that's open to us and will provide future needs  
because I think just about everyone is agreed that it 
doesn't lie in the Iao area.  We've got what we've 
got, but expansion won't come from there. 
 The other very important point is -- and we've 
had some discussion today on that -- is adequate 
understanding of the resources.  And not just 
understanding of the Iao and Waihee, but understanding 
of our global water resources for our island.  And 
there has been talk about hiring a geologist to do it 
in-house or whatever.  My belief is that we should 
take advantage of something that is available to us 
and that is the USGS which is there for that purpose.  
And I'm hoping that at a meeting soon, we can get to 
have a presentation by the USGS people on current 
water modeling techniques. 
 I flew over to Honolulu about two months ago 
and I got a presentation on water models that have 
been done for Honolulu and for other places.  And it's 
incredible what they show and the depth of 
information.  I know we'll have to gather a lot more 
information before we can develop a model that will 
really work, but USGS is the world leader in doing 
these models.  They have a unit in Virginia and then 
also they have a unit at Stanford University and, you 
know, as well as the people in Honolulu.  Just about 
any place on earth where state-of-the-art water 
modeling is being done, it's being done with the help 
of USGS.  They have the best computers and the best 
analysts in the world.  There is one gentleman, I 
forget his name, who actually created the science of 
it and is still with them as a consultant. 
 So I would like to ask that we get a 
presentation on it and see the possibility and -- I 
know that when budget time comes, I for one will be 
asking to see if we can put up some funds that we can 
get matched by USGS federal funds so it doesn't even 
all come out of our pocket.  I've heard that it might 
be possible to get some funds from the regular county 
budget because I know council members and the 
administration are also concerned.  And that will move 
us away from this how much can we take from one 
particular pie slice versus the next pie slice, but 
rather look at what we're using, what all of the water 
inputs are, and get some real information. 
 So you know, I look to you, Mr. Chair, for 
leadership.  You've been showing it in this in a very 
fair and honorable way and I thank you for bringing us 
this far and bringing us further ahead.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Thank you, Mr. Starr.  Anybody 
else?  What I would like to do at this point is try to 
get some consensus.  We're not going to solve all the 
problems today, but if we can get some consensus on 
some important issues and we can decide how we're 
going to move forward. 
 And I guess the primary issue here is and 
there appears to be consensus on the fact that Iao is 
basically being pumped at its maximum at this point.  
Yes?  No?  Indifferent? 

MR. SHEPHERD:  I vote for that. 

MR. STARR:  I believe you're correct.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  I knew you would.  Because I 
mean, as we -- I mean, if we don't think that's the 
case, then we should discuss it.  If we think that's 
the case, then we need to decide what plan are we 
going to put forth, both short term and long term.  
Because -- and as Glenn referred, there is a lot of 
pressure being put on this board.  We are not in the 
business of making planning decisions; they're made by 
somebody else.  We're in the business of providing 
water.  And if that particular source of water is at 
its capacity or over, then we need to create a plan to 
manage that resource correctly and devise other sources. 
 So I don't see any heads nodding or shaking, 
but I'm assuming by not saying anything you're in 
agreement with the Chair that our position on the Iao 
Aquifer is that we are, what, currently at its maximum 
and ideally we would want to reduce pumping?  Am I 
saying something -- I'm doing all the talking here.

MR. HIRANAGA:  I guess I'm not prepared to 
take a position at this time.  I feel that there is 
concern and whatever -- there is concern regarding the 
sustainable yield of the Iao Aquifer.  But I just need 
to I guess learn more before I can make a 
determination for myself.  So at this point I'm not 
for or against your statement.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  What would you like to see?

MR. HIRANAGA:  Well, I've been on the board 
now for almost one year -- I guess over a year now and 
a statement, like Mr. Shepherd said, that you put a 
bunch of geologists in a room, they all come up with 
different positions.  It's just a very difficult issue.

MR. SHEPHERD:  [Iaudible]? 

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Okay.  Virginia? 

MS. PARSONS:  The adequacy of that USGS study 
is pretty significant, don't you agree?  And maybe 
that's something we need to look into and see what 
kind of data we can get, if we can institute that 
study.

MR. STARR:  Mr. Chairman, may I make a 
suggestion that perhaps in the next month we call 
another meeting and we ask to join us, first of all, I 
think John Mink should be here because he's the one 
who set the sustainable yield numbers and he's 
generally been the board consultant.  I would also 
like to ask USGS to come and as part of their 
presentation, I would like to request a presentation 
on their numerical modeling and we'll actually get to 
see some models they have done for other places so we 
can experience that and any other people who want to 
give input on the aquifers and sustainable yield and 
water usage and any other topics.  And even invite 
people who might have ideas in directions we can move 
-- I'm sorry, ideas of ways we can move forward.  You 
know, some of them may be crazy, some of them may be 
good.  And let's have a meeting and put all this on 
the table. 
 Some of the board members haven't had a chance 
to see these presentations before.  Some of the 
presentations, none of us have seen before.  So let's 
go ahead and try to educate ourselves a bit further.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Yes, Ginnie. 

MS. PARSONS:  Can we do the entire county?  
Can they give us a budget where they do the whole 
entire county?  We could make it a budget where they 
do sectionals as we go?

MR. STARR:  Yeah, I believe for the numerical 
modeling, what's being talked about is what's known as 
a head and shoulders model which would give if not all 
of the island, at least from say here in.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Did you exclude West Maui again?  

MR. STARR:  Yes.  I would love to do the whole 
island.  It's a -- there was one done for Molokai 
which was a -- it was done some years ago and it was 
kind off a previous generation of thing, so we don't 
-- Molokai, you know, wouldn't be doing the whole 
county.  But I think the whole island would probably 
be the way to go, if we can afford that.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  I think what Mr. Starr is 
recommending is that they come in and do a 
presentation on the kind of modeling they can do and 
then from that if we found that it was something we're 
interested in, we would get a proposal from them.  But 
the idea being to see what kind of a resource this 
modeling would provide for us.  I think that was the 
intent of the presentation.

MR. STARR:  I'm not at this point suggesting 
we go ahead with it, but that we look at what's 
available to us and at what cost.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Kent? 

MR. HIRANAGA:  I agree with Jonathan's 
suggestion.  I think we should at the immediate point 
though focus on Iao Aquifer versus expanding the 
scope. 
 I think we had a similar session last year, 
several parties came and testified.  Personally 
myself, after being on the board for a year, I'm more 
capable of absorbing the information than I was at 
that previous meeting. 

CHAIRMAN RICE:  I would like to look at it as 
an education meeting, not necessarily as testifying.  
I think we're taking a position that we need to do 
something about Iao.  We're not arguing about that.  
So let's move on to the next stage as to what we need 
to do and start to gather information.  I think that's 
the proper --

MR. STARR:  Just one comment, which is I think 
some of our problem lies in the fact that the old 
system, which was to carve it up into these aquifer 
areas, creates a lot of problems and confusion.  We 
get to argue whether it's Iao versus Waihee. 
 There is about 40 million gallons a day worth 
of pumps within a couple of miles of the boundary of 
Iao over here and no one knows how much water they're 
pumping.  There are no pumping records or reports.  
So, you know, since they're outside of the borders of 
Iao, they don't go on to any of our charts.  It's very 
possible that the fact that Iao is not able to provide 
as much water as was once thought is due to the fact 
that there are all these other pumps from -- whether 
they're plantation pumps, Maui Electric, Keapulani 
Park, Maui Lani, many many other entities have big 
million gallon a day or more pumps just outside of Iao. 
 So what happens, if you look at one area under 
a microscope, you don't see what's next to it.  
Whereas the -- and that was the old way of doing it.  
It was politically expedient.  But currently the 
tendency is to look larger and you just get rid of 
those lines on the map, the boundaries, and you look 
at what's really available where. 
 And then you're able to do what-if situations.  
You're able to say if we have these existing wells but 
we add a new well there, how will it affect the 
existing wells?  And, you know, that's -- that makes a 
much more useful -- anyway, I think we should have the 
presentation and then make a decision.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  So I guess I'm hearing and 
everybody seems to be in favor of scheduling another 
Committee of the Whole meeting and we're going to ask 
for the attendance of USGS people to present us with 
this modeling thing.  Okay. 

MR. STARR:  Could we also ask for John Mink also?

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Oh, sure, and John Mink, 
absolutely.  Does that sound appropriate to everyone?  
Nodding of heads.  We don't need a motion to do that?  
We'll just proceed?  Then if there is no other 
business --

MR. STARR:  Mr. Chair, on a similar matter, 
I'm hoping we can also get an update from John Mink on 
the EIS.  It seems to be dragging a bit again and, you 
know, I feel that that's of utmost importance, so.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Okay.  Very good.  If there is 
no other business.  Howard?

MR. NAKAMURA:  One quick question relative to 
this issue of spreading the pumping, the board in the 
past has appropriated funds to bring the Waikapu well 
into the system.  What's the status of that, David? 

MR. CRADDICK:  Herb, did you get that 
question?  The status of the contract on the Waikapu 
well, getting the pump and the well there.  

MR. KOGASAKA:  I think we are trying to 
determine, Mr. Chairman, what the developer's 
participation portion would be and we need to kind of 
-- we need to determine what they would do and how we 
would proceed with this factor in there to evaluate 
that further, award a contract to design or award a 
contract to install a pump. 

MR. NAKAMURA:  I guess, Mr. Chairman, my 
concern -- just a quick comment -- is I think that's 
the same response we've been getting for quite a 
while.  If there is a problem in trying to resolve a 
policy direction in terms of participation with other 
entities, whatever that may be, perhaps the board 
chairman or somebody on the board designates these to 
be involved in trying to bring it to some resolution.  
Because it seems like an important enough issue that 
it shouldn't be just sitting there.

CHAIRMAN RICE:  I agree.  Mr. Craddick, can 
you prepare something for us -- a report of the status 
and speak to me about it?  So if we need to take some 
action, we can do that. 
I'm sorry, Carl, you wanted to say something. 

MR. FREEDMAN:  I'm going to write a letter. 

CHAIRMAN RICE:  Sure?  I didn't mean to -- 
you're fine?  Anything else before we adjourn?  
Meeting is adjourned.   Thank you.

(Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned at 10:45 a.m.)
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