BOARD OF WATER SUPPLY
COUNTY OF MAUI
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE


Taken at the David Trask Building, Conference Room 207,
Wailuku, Maui, Hawaii, commencing at 9:00 a.m. on
October 10, 2001 pursuant to Notice.

REPORTED BY: GLORIA T. BEDIAMOL, RMR/RPR/CSR #262
IWADO COURT REPORTERS, INC. 

A T T E N D A N C E
Members present: 
Howard Nakamura, Chair
Clark Hashimoto
Mike Nobriga
Jonathan Starr
Orlando Tagorda
Kent Hiranaga

Staff present: 
David Craddick, Director
George Tengan, Deputy Director
Herb Kogasaka, Engineering
Fran Nago, Board Secretary

Others present:
Elliot Krash

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

 * * *

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: I would like to call the meeting
of the Committee of the Whole of the Board of Water Supply to
order. It's 9:02, for a meeting on Wednesday, October 10,
2001, room 207 of the David K. Trask Jr. Office Building in
Wailuku.
 In attendance we have board members -- committee
members Clark Hashimoto, Jonathan Starr, Kent Hiranaga, Orlando
Tagorda, Mike Nobriga, and myself, Chairman Howard Nakamura.
Also in attendance are Director David Craddick, Deputy Director
George Tengan, and engineering Herb Kogasaka and board
secretary Fran Nago. We have no minutes to approve.
We're here today to discuss one item which is a
communication from the director regarding adequacy of source in
the Upcountry water system. At this time I would like to ask
if there are any members of the public who would like to
testify on this particular issue. I guess we're looking at one
person and no testimony.

A VOICE: I'm here to learn.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Here to learn. Thank you.
Let's move directly to the communication from Director David
Craddick regarding adequacy of source in the Upcountry water
system. I would like to turn it over to David, who will
explain this letter and perhaps review it in detail before we
open it up for questions and comments from the members.
David, as clearly as possible.

MR. CRADDICK: Anybody want me to go over again
what's on the first page there? That's basically background
information. How we got to the current situation.

MR. TAGORDA: Give us your best shot.

MR. CRADDICK: On the next page, on the Waikamoi
intakes, this number here, 1.6, that's based basically on our
ability to treat water. We probably have slightly more water
than that, but we can't treat it at this point. When we get
the dual line in we should be able to take that number up to
about 2 million gallons.
 That reliability number comes from the flow duration
curves prepared by the soil and water conservation district
from reports that were done on the upper and lower line back in
the '60s. And based on the reservoir capacity, they have got
curves for 100 percent reliability, 85 percent, I'm giving you
the numbers of these reservoir capacities that we have, what
they represent on that curve.
 Now, on Piiholo, the reliability is a little bit
less and you can see what's normally available and during in
drought, because the reliability goes down so far to 3.75 and
there's essentially no water there when you are in a drought
situation. Very little water.
 On the Wailoa ditch, the treatment plant is
currently designed to treat 7.15; but when the water is very
clean we have been able to get health department approval to
allow us to go up to 8.2 million gallons a day.
The Hamakua ditch, the ag park, current demand is
around a half million, but we have the ability to pump up about
1 million gallons a day of water there. We have got three
pumps at the first reservoir; I believe two pumps at the next
reservoir. We have no problems supplying that. Hamakuapoko
well, during normal times, we can't use any of the water;
during drought time, we have 1.5 available to us.
Kaupakalua well, we're taking our 45 percent and
putting that number in there. Under drought availability, just
being conservative, I left that number the same; but in
actuality, if we pump the water up into the upper system, which
we could do probably with some booster pumps, we can't do it
right at this time, we probably could change that number to
1.5. But we can't do it right now.
On the Haiku well, we have got .2 million gallons a
day that we use, but we could bring that number up to .5 with
some booster pumps there, but we do have the ability to do that
right now.
 During the last fiscal year, the average water use
has been about 7 million gallons a day. Other factors, and you
may be able to come up with some others; but some factors that
we consider are, if the board is committed, half a million
gallons a day to Hawaiian Home Lands on an average day basis.
 The Kaupakalua well is committed to supply --
actually, the total is about .7 million gallons a day, and
Kulamalu has already used about 50 of that, so the number you
have there is what is remaining. I guess if the board goes
ahead and follows through with -- is able to follow through
with the recommendation yesterday, then that number would go
down to .55.
 Anyways, on point No. 3 there, where it says 8.7,
that's a misprint, it should say 3 percent. What we have done
there is we've looked at all the meters that are using less
than 1,000 gallons per billing cycle. That number was 8.7
awhile back. It's currently 3 percent. So we have made some
estimate for what those meters would use. And then the max day
demand during the last year was 10.4 million gallons. That's
not really use, it's just something to consider out there.
When we combine factors 1, 2 and 3, they total 1.3
million gallons a day. Now, if we add that to the 7 million
gallons a day and add 1 million for the ag park, we end up with
9.3 million gallons a day. That would be the demand on an
average day basis. If we have a supply of 14, then we have
supply exceeding demand during normal conditions. That's
always been the case. We have always been able to supply water
during normal situations.
 Now, if we look at it a little more conservatively,
looking at how we would supply max day during a drought, and
I'm presuming that the board takes the position that even
though we're in a system that uses surface water mainly, that
we don't expect to operate the system on a normal basis
requiring people to cut back. Even though we know in variant
stream situations, like, for instance, if we go below 16
million gallons a day, we do have to start cutting back on that
8. If we go below 16 million gallons a day at Wailoa ditch.
So numbers on the previous page where I say 8.2,
that presumes there's at least 16.4 million gallons a day
coming in at Wailoa ditch. So there can be situations where
you don't have that, but there's only one of those on record --
in the record of that ditch being used.
Anyways, we have a supply of 13.8 minus the max day
demand of 11.4. And I'm getting that 11.4 by adding in the ag
park. So there's a balance of 2.4 million. So, then we have
to look at the factors again, which 1.3 on an average day and
multiplying that times 1.5, you end up with 2 million gallons a
day. Or adding that 2 to the 11, you get 13.4 million gallons
a day or, again, an excess of .4 million gallons.
 Now, the Haiku well was put in with water system
development fee funds. It's the only source that's been
increased using development fee funds that's on line at this
time. All other sources were increased using state or board
funds for the purpose of drought reduction or private funds for
a specific purpose.
 Allowing the average day production from the Haiku
well, or .45 times the installed pump capacity of .5 or .2
million gallons, I feel is reasonable and a conservative number
to be able to give out at this time.
 Now, even though that number is available to give
out, in the evaluation consideration is that there are certain
distribution systems that are still inadequate. By saying this
water is available will not make those distribution systems
inadequate. And the difficulty of separating the Kamole
treatment facility from groundwater flows due to disinfection
contact times can become an issue sometimes, but at this point
it's not an issue and we can't deal with that simply by
increasing the third well at Kamole Weir.
 All of these factors are somehow related to our
infrastructure, but they are not source related. As currently
defined by the water system development fees source
development, that means construction of any source structured
to capture, convey, store and treat currently unutilized
non-potable surface water or the construction of facilities for
groundwater and its treatment, including pumps, motor control
stations, tanks and even desalination facilities and any
easements on land.
 These factors can be addressed during low rainfall
conditions because the department is able to obtain hoses or
set up temporary tanks or pumps, which is what we would have to
do to bring the Haiku well and pump it up to the Kokomo tank to
use that. But there's no legal restrictions on doing that, and
we have all the equipment to do it.
 Based on these factors, I believe we can take on
your additional services, and existing meter up sizing can be
permitted, provided we don't go over a couple hundred thousand
gallons a day. And if we make that arrangement, we'll see our
way clear -- that number may be able to be increased also.
 The rest of it I'll leave -- I believe there's some
questions that some board members had at the last time we
discussed this. And I'll pass this around also.
The question was, How many meters have been issued
Upcountry since March 1993, based on a showing of detrimental
reliance? And the number we have is 1,039 meters. Total.
Some may not have been issued yet, but there's a requirement to
issue them.
 Next question is, How many don't affect -- or didn't
affect the source? And from that I believe we have identified
about 51 meters.
 How many five-eighths inch meters have been issued
Upcountry to existing lots? On that one there, I don't know
how we would distinguish the vacant lots from the detrimental
reliance, so we basically added all of that into the
detrimental reliance.
 And then, How many meters were issued Upcountry
between November 1, 1977 and March 16, 1993, during the Kula
rule time? The answer to that question is 2,433 meters.
Then there are some other statistics in the back if
you are interested with that. The average annual increase in
meters from November '77 to March '93 was 4.7 percent increase
in meters per year. The average annual increase from March
1993 to June 2000 was 1.69 percent per year. So about a
three-time reduction in meters given out during that time.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Okay, thank you, David.
At this time I would like to ask if any members of
the committee have questions to David regarding his submittal.
Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR: I'll begin here. The Wailoa ditch in
drought conditions, you say that you can get 8.2 million
gallons out of there?

MR. CRADDICK: Until the ditch hits 16.4. In which
case we then have to reduce our draw pro rata.

MR. STARR: In other words, in drought conditions
you can't get 8.2, you can get less?

MR. CRADDICK: No, drought condition is defined when
the ditch hits 50 million gallons a day, that's a drought
condition. When we use -- when we're required to use all
available groundwater sources, that's a drought.

MR. STARR: You just said that when the ditch falls
below a certain level, you can't get that much out of it,
though.

MR. CRADDICK: That's an extreme case that has
happened one time in about 125 years.

MR. STARR: Do you have regular approval to get 8.2
million gallons out of the treatment plant?

MR. CRADDICK: We have every time we needed to do it
since the treatment plant has been on line. So I'm not worried
at all that the health department would not continue to give
that approval.

MR. STARR: Do you feel confident in issuing new
meters against Hamakuapoko wells?

MR. CRADDICK: I don't feel we're issuing it against
those wells because --

MR. STARR: Here they are on the list and the list
is what you are using to justify that there's sufficient source
available.

MR. CRADDICK: That's for an emergency situation and
our EA allows the use of that in a --

MR. STARR: To issue meters?

MR. CRADDICK: It allows for the use of that source
during an emergency or drought situation. That's all I can
say.

MR. STARR: We have been in an emergency for the
last -- how long?

MR. CRADDICK: Since February, I believe.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Any further questions,
Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR: Yeah. You've got Hamakuapoko wells as
1.5 million gallons. How come you didn't derate them to 45
percent like you do other sources? We're talking about meter
issuance here, David.

MR. CRADDICK: Yeah.

MR. STARR: Shouldn't they be derated, or do you
feel you can use the full pump capacity?

MR. CRADDICK: The court order says we can't issue
meters based on those sources so --

MR. STARR: That's what you seem to be asking us to
do.

MR. CRADDICK: If you are using them to meet a peak
and the court allows you to do that, the environmental work
that we did allows us to do that, I'm not in a position to
second guess that decision. If you want to, I guess, get
clarification on that, that's something you can do, whether
from the court.
 But my feeling is this is in compliance with what
the court has said and what our EA has said about the use of
those wells. I think everybody knows we're using them when
we're in a drought situation.

MR. STARR: Do you feel it prudent to issue new
meters when we're in a drought emergency for year-round -- so
we're in a drought emergency simply so we can use emergency
sources?

MR. CRADDICK: Well, if that's the reason you are
doing it, I'm not certain you have to do that. All you have to
do is say what a drought is, what a drought means to you. And
at that point, it would be fairly administerial for the staff
to start the pump up.
 Right now the board actually has to take an action
in declaring a drought and rather than doing that during some
predefined time, the board has just seen their way clear to
leave the emergency drought situation in place full time, which
is another way to handle it, I guess. But however you handle
it is all right, as far as I'm concerned. It's up to the board
how they want to handle it.

MR. STARR: I have a problem with remaining in a
drought emergency month after month after month as a pretext of
using those wells, especially if we're going to issue meters
against them.

MR. CRADDICK: We don't use it when we're not below
50 million in the ditch.

MR. STARR: We are in a declared state of drought
emergency. Anyway, I'll leave that discussion. My other
question here is, have you proceeded effective immediately to
the actions that you said you were going to do in that letter?

MR. CRADDICK: I haven't because I believe -- I
don't see it in here.

MR. STARR: On September 26th, you said, Therefore,
pertaining to the affected areas and effective immediately the
director shall proceed to process applications for new or
increased water service by date received. Process application
for building permit by date received. Process subdivision
application by date received. So I'm asking whether you have
done what you said you were going to do or not.

MR. CRADDICK: I haven't because no action has been
taken on this director's report.

MR. STARR: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Mr. Starr, is that it for now?

MR. STARR: For now, yes, it is.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Any other members of the
committee have questions? Mr. Tagorda?

MR. TAGORDA: Just to add up with that 8.2 MGD on
Wailoa ditch, David, and look at your Hamakuapoko wells during
drought condition at 1.5. How would you add up 8.2 and 1.5
during drought condition, but in your letter there is that
problem of disinfection contact time issues. Are you not
trying to contradict yourself here?

MR. CRADDICK: At 9.7 million gallons a day we don't
have a contact time issue. We can pump up to 11 million
gallons up the hill without running into a problem with contact
time with the current facilities that are there. So that
contact time is not currently a limiting factor, I'm just
trying to make you aware that in the future that is probably
going to become a limiting factor.
For instance, if Haliimaile were to build up or the
Manaolo (phonetic) project down below somehow tied into our
system, then something could happen where we would exceed that
contact --

MR. TAGORDA: In actuality, these two numbers are
not realistic, then.

MR. CRADDICK: They're realistic for the situation
right now that we have today.

MR. TAGORDA: Because during drought, you are not
allowed to pick up 8.2 when the ditch flow is low unless all
your groundwater wells are up, are on.

MR. CRADDICK: Well, I think you are talking about
the MOU now.

MR. TAGORDA: Something like that, yeah. I'm
getting to that pretty soon.

MR. CRADDICK: The MOU just basically says use all
available groundwater sources once you go below 50 million
gallons in the ditch; right? But the action needed by the
board is if we're not in a drought situation, there must be
some kind of drought declaration by the board to be able to use
these Hamakuapoko wells. And that's what I have been trying to
get some clear understanding with the board.
 Because if I go and -- if I just follow through with
this letter and I started to give the water out, and the board
says, well, there's no drought emergency, and hey, by the way,
the director is giving out water meters, we don't need to
declare a drought anymore, we could never use this source of
water. So I have to have it clear in my mind that the board
will do the job that is necessary when the time comes.
 Because as one board member says, you know, they
don't like the idea of having just a drought being on
continuously when criteria, at least that we used in the past,
is not being met.
 Now, if there is some different criteria in the
future for what the board feels a drought is, we need to know
that. The staff needs to know that so that we have it clear in
our minds when something is going to happen and we won't run
afoul of anything. That's why this is actually before the
board, just to get that clear understanding.
Because if we don't have that, I don't want to be in
a position of giving these meters out and what I expect would
happen doesn't happen, and then we don't have the sources
available to us that we might otherwise be able to use.

MR. TAGORDA: Let's get back to the different
scenario. Kaupakalua well, Dowling well, you said we could get
700,000 MGD on that --

MR. CRADDICK: Yes.

MR. TAGORDA: The capacity of those wells?

MR. CRADDICK: 1.5 or 1.6.

MR. TAGORDA: But you are not allowed to pump 1.5
from the well, is it?

MR. CRADDICK: We could, it's just that if we pump
it at 1.5, we have no way of getting it into the system. So if
I put 1.5 in there, I got to have some way to get it into the
system and use it. If we're already taking water out of the
ditch, and maybe you can use this as a factor where we can even
go below 16 in the ditch, because then we could pump this water
in the ditch and treat it at the treatment plant.
But at 8.2, those filters are treating water to the
max, so the 8.2 has a filter limiting factor. So only if the
water in the ditch goes below 16 and we don't have 8.2 to put
in the filter, then this may become a factor, you know, because
we could -- and keep in mind, you know, during this time, those
people are going to be peaking, so there's not going to be
another .7 or 8 million gallons a day available to use.
There might be .4 million gallons a day to use or
something like that, that we could put in the ditch and maybe
even go below 16 and still be able to treat 8.2 at the ditch.

MR. TAGORDA: Since we have the Kamole treatment
plant -- was installed, David, and has been working. In the
past, how many times have you -- have we pumped -- have you put
in 8.2 from the treatment plant? Do you have any idea? Not
one time I bet.

MR. CRADDICK: No, we have every time the board
declared a drought emergency since the -- and we were really in
an emergency situation since the treatment plant has been on
line. So it's been almost once a year.

MR. TAGORDA: Did you encounter some problems when
you do full capacity at the treatment plant?

MR. CRADDICK: We do, because the treatment plant,
the way it is right now, we can only clean the filters with
caustic soda. We have one cleaning tank, and we found that
after we used them for a long time, algae builds up and the
caustic soda does not remove the algae. So we need a second
cleaning tank so we can acidize (sic) the filter as well as
using the caustic soda to better clean the filters. And if we
did that, we would be able to clean the filters faster.
 As it is right now, once we go through the cleaning
regime, it takes about a day per filter, because you've got to
bring the caustic soda and clean it with that, drain that
caustic soda, put acid in. Again, acid will clean it. So it's
cumbersome right now and we probably should have an acid
cleaning tank.

MR. TAGORDA: Realizing all the problems you just
mentioned, David, the 8.2 MGD is not realistic during drought
conditions.

MR. CRADDICK: I would not put it here if the
treatment plant didn't feel they could do it. They have done
it; they feel they can do it. We have to make sure, you know,
when we see the drought coming on, what we do is we get our
filters all cleaned. Because at that point the water is very,
very clean.
 When we're in a real bad drought, the water straight
out of the ditch almost meets the EPA requirements. It's very,
very clean water. And we don't have much problem until it
rains again, and then once it rains again, we don't have to
treat that much water; we can cut back on what we treat.
But we watch ourselves as the ditch flow goes down
and down and we realize we're going to have to be going at
maximum. We get all those filters cleaned and get everything
ready. We don't just sit and wait until we're in a very bad
situation, and then say we got to start cleaning, and can't
produce the water we need to produce.

MR. TAGORDA: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Any other members of the
committee have questions? Mr. Nobriga, with both hands.

MR. NOBRIGA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Concerning the
document before us, which is the real discussion matter at
hand, taking into account the director's conservative approach,
the first paragraph of page 3, I believe we show the -- what's
the legal term -- acceptance -- supply of 13.8 million gallons
per day is a real figure.
 He also states that minus a max demand of 11.4
million gallons a day, which is based on the current figures
that we received daily on maximum area use of 10.4, plus the
one million of the ag park, leaves a balance of 2.4 million
gallons a day. I think that is -- I don't have any difficulty
with the mathematics being used there.
 The next sentence is where I have difficulty.
Factors 1, 2 and 3 include a .5 million gallons a day request
for a dedication to Hawaiian Home Lands. Factor 2 includes an
additional factor of Kulamalu, which is stated at .65. He also
includes that .5 MGD is already being used, and that .5 MGD per
day is included in the 10.4 because it's already been drawn.
That leaves us with a factor of .5, because Kulamalu just
informed us that they have excess of .1.
 In addition to item 3, which takes into account
meters that are not being used, assuming that all of a sudden
they are going to be used, I don't think it's a pertinent
factor. So I come up with an excess which can be equated to
system availability or additional capacity of 1.2 MGD. I add
that 1.2 to the other .2 from the Haiku well and it comes out
to 1.4 million gallons a day. Which should be identified as
additional capacity within the affected area.
 My main concern is to satisfy the reliance of people
on the list. The people went on the list in reliance that
water would be available. It has been almost 11 years. People
have died waiting on that list for water availability.
I thank Mr. Starr for his comments and questions,
but I always thought Mr. Starr was on the same page as I was in
getting people waiting on the list before they die for water.
 So I would have no problem accepting and verifying
the director's report. But I do feel we have capacity of
releasing up to .5 million gallons per day. Actually, I don't
have a question, Mr. Chair.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Thank you, Mr. Nobriga.
Mr. Craddick?

MR. CRADDICK: I would just say I know at least two,
inch-and-a-half meters that are not currently being used, that
just those two meters being used could equate to this .15
million gallons a day of water use. So I'm not so certain I
would be so cavalier saying those people will never use their
meters. I know they are currently planning to do that.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Okay. Before Mr. Starr, does
anybody else have a question? Okay, Mr. Starr.

MR. STARR: I have to say that I'm a little bit torn
here because I do agree with Mr. Nobriga that people have been
sitting on the list while all these other meters have been
issued, this thousand some odd meters had been issued have been
wronged one way or the other. We have to take care of the list
people.
 This document does disturb me, though, because I
really believe it's -- what's been called in the past, voodoo
(sic) economics. I can't go along with using Hamakuapoko wells
at 1.5 as a justification for -- there also is something very,
very lacking here which is the amount of water that's actually
lost in the system. And I know that there's a lot of water
that disappears between the treatment plants and the wells and
the consumers. If we took that into account, I don't really
feel this is a good justification.
 But I would like to find the most expeditious way of
dealing with the list people, because I feel if there's anyone
who has some reliance and dependence and a real justification
for being taken care of, it's those folks as well. So I think
I'm just going to let it go. This paper is not worth the ink
it's written on, in my opinion.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Thank you, Mr. Starr. David?

MR. CRADDICK: As far as water loss, these are
production numbers, not consumption numbers. If you add the
consumption numbers in here, the numbers would be lower on what
is being used. These are production numbers. It includes
water loss.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Okay, thank you. The chair does
have some questions, but I recognize that there are others in
attendance who have come in after the meeting convened, and so
although it may not be in accordance with the agenda, with the
indulgence of the committee members, I would like to ask again
if there are any members of the public who would like to say
anything at this point. No. Unusually quiet public today.
Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR: Elliot's hand is halfway up.

ELLIOT KRASH: I'm still confused about some of the
numbers.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Please.

ELLIOT KRASH: My name is Elliot Krash. I'm just
speaking today personally, but, of course, my comments reflect
the Upcountry group that I represent, the Kula Community
Association. I hadn't planned to speak today because I had so
many questions and so much confusion when I read the material
and I guess I've heard that reflected in the discussion here.
 One of my questions focused on the H'poko wells, and
if we take that 1.5 million out of the drought availability
number, then we're down to 12.3. And another of my questions
focused on the estimate of increase over the next two years.
 So if you take that increase out of that 12.3 and take out the
other factors, it seems to me we come down to a number where,
unfortunately, we wouldn't have enough to start issuing meters
to people on the list.
 And I guess I feel the same way that all you do from
what I've heard expressed, we want to start satisfying the
needs of those people who have been on that list in good faith
for so long. But I question, do we want to do it to the
detriment of the people who are already on line and counting on
water every day? Do we want to put ourselves in a situation
where we go back to drought watch, drought emergency, or
whatever we call it?
 So I was sitting here, as you all were talking and
trying to calculate the numbers, and follow the conversation,
and I'm still not sure. Being a teacher, I wanted to come to
the blackboard and start writing and trying to figure it all
out. I don't have any answers.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Let her finish, David.

MR. CRADDICK: I thought she was pau.

ELLIOT KRASH: Yes, I'm pau, I think.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Thank you, Elliot.
David?

MR. CRADDICK: I just had a question there. What do
you mean when you said take out the 2 million?

ELLIOT KRASH: If we take out the Hamakuapoko 1.5
from the 13.8 drought availability number, and in my mind, I'm
thinking we can't always count on that, it's my understanding
that is ultimately dedicated for another system. Dedicated to
come to central. So if ultimately we have to take that out,
that brings us down.
 Then, if we take out -- I thought there was an
estimate of how much water will increase over the next two
years, how much more we'll use. And it says on page 3 in the
first paragraph, 2 million gallons a day. So that brings us
down to a number --

MR. CRADDICK: If you take that out, that makes more
water available, not less. That's my question. If that's what
you are talking about, that makes more water available if you
don't account for Hawaiian Homes.

ELLIOT KRASH: No -- I'm sorry, I don't mean to take
it out, I was just deducting it from the bottom line. It means
you are down from where you don't have --

MR. CRADDICK: If you deduct it from the bottom line
of use, that means you've got more available. And I won't
suggest not considering these, I mean --

ELLIOT KRASH: I agree that we have to consider it.
I'm not saying to eliminate it. I'm saying if you count it as
being used --

MR. CRADDICK: We are counting it as being used in
there. We're counting that as a use. Even though it's highly
unlikely that Hawaiian Homes will build out any time in the
near future or in the Kulamalu project, we're probably going to
see ten years or more before that's built out.
 So the likelihood of that 2 million gallons being
used up in the next one or two years is extremely remote, but
we're still saying it's all going to be used in the next year
and looking at the worst possible situation.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: I think Elliot has made her
point. I don't think it's appropriate for us to engage in a
debate with the witness.
Mr. Hashimoto?

MR. HASHIMOTO: I just wanted to know what -- is .5
million for Hawaiian Homes, does it include both the ag and the
homesite or just the --

MR. CRADDICK: In the agreement with the board, they
can use it however they want to.

MR. HASHIMOTO: So it's -- both ag and regular
subdivision would be .5 million?

MR. CRADDICK: Yes.

MR. STARR: It says potable five-eighths meters.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Thank you again, Elliot.

MR. NOBRIGA: I have a question for Ms. Elliot
Krash.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Mr. Nobriga?

MR. NOBRIGA: This last -- this current drought
emergency we're in effect on did not impose any mandatory
restrictions in water use. Had we needed to require that and
consumption did reduce to the levels that we usually see within
the 10 percent reduction, would you still have your same
opinion?

ELLIOT KRASH: I think what you are asking is if we
tighten our belts and use less water, would I still have the
opinion that we shouldn't issue meters if we're going to be
putting people into a cutback scenario?

MR. NOBRIGA: Your comments was based on not taking
into consideration the 1.5 million gallons from H'poko wells.
You felt that if we were to issue new meters, it would be at
the --

MR. HASHIMOTO: The expense.

MR. NOBRIGA: -- at the expense of the customers
already served. Thank you.

ELLIOT KRASH: I think that's my bottom line answer,
that we don't want to issue new meters if it's going to be to
the detriment of the current users. And if we're not sure of
these numbers, then maybe we need to look more at it.

MR. NOBRIGA: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Mr. Hashimoto?

MR. HASHIMOTO: You mentioned about the 1.5 million,
the H'poko wells would be directed to -- or redirected to
Central Maui. Is that a question or is that --

ELLIOT KRASH: That was a statement of my
understanding. It's a question in my mind, I did not ask it
directly.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Perhaps David can clarify that.

MR. CRADDICK: It certainly is a concern, but the
board can take care of that two ways: one, by not sitting
around doing nothing for the next 20 years. Which kind of from
1977 until now is basically what has happened, and that, in my
mind, is evidenced by the fact that the board is moving ahead
with the well in Pookela. We would expect that well itself
would equal this capacity.
 There's other things that the board can do, they can
say, hey, we're going to leave this for Upcountry, it will
serve Upcountry all the time. Now, you may have to go back and
reimburse the state for the money of putting that in, but it's
still something the board could do.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR: I would like to make a clarification
about Hamakuapoko because I think we should be clear about what
it is and what the status is. That well was drilled under the
East Maui water plan, and it's under the -- it's currently
under an ongoing EIS process, and that EIS, if and when it's
approved, will allow its use into the Central and South Maui
system.
 So as of now, those two wells are dedicated to the
central system and that is what we have asked -- we're going
through the EIS process to do. We have begun drilling a
monitor well, a test well on Hog Back Ridge as part of that EIS
process that began this week. So, you know, that process is
moving along.
 We went to the court that was involved with the
prior EIS which was found lacking and asked them for special
dispensation to be able to use the Hamakuapoko wells
temporarily in the Upcountry system, and they allowed us to do
it only in times of drought emergency. So we have to declare a
drought emergency to use them Upcountry and we have been in a
drought emergency for many, many, many months specifically so
we could use those wells for the Upcountry system on a
temporary basis.
 I think that it's good that we were able to avoid
having any mandatory cutbacks, and I believe the reason we did
avoid the mandatory cutbacks is because we had those wells and
we were willing to spend the money to pump water uphill at
whatever it costs. I do feel the board should be clear on what
the situation is. The Upcountry system is still inadequate and
it's just barely maintaining adequacy by borrowing Hamakuapoko
wells under a state of emergency.
 Now, I have asked about -- every single month I've
made a motion to go out of drought emergency, and I'm going to
continue to do so, because my own belief is an emergency is a
situation you don't want to be in except when you are in an
emergency. And if you live in a state of emergency, then when
you have an emergency, you have no place left to go. It's like
the boy calling wolf.
 I would rather leave them for when things really get
dry and really gets bad and we really need it, rather than
maintain a state of drought emergency month after month. So
far no one else on the board has backed me up, but I will
continue to make motions at board meetings that we go out of
drought emergency unless we really are facing an emergency.
I really would rather those two meters were not in
this document, which we're using to justify issuance of more
meters, because I think that if anyone involved in that EIS
lawsuit were to realize the fact that we are using them here to
justify the issuance of meters, they could go to court and the
court would disallow our use, and then when we are in an
emergency situation we won't be able to use them. So I have
some real concerns here. We may need them, but this isn't the
best way to maintain that.
 We have not done nothing as David said. We're
pushing ahead as fast as we can on the Pookela well. Although
I did see the water commission issued a well permit to Maui
Land and Pine for a well at Pookela this last week. So
hopefully we'll be the ones who are able to drill a well at
Pookela, even though the permit was just issued to Maui Land
and Pine.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: I have a question or a couple of
questions to David. David, from a standpoint of definition,
you talk about the current average daily water demand as being
7.0 MGD, you are talking about that as being an annual average;
is that right?

MR. CRADDICK: That's correct.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: And you also refer to a maximum
daily demand of 10.4 MGD. How do you define the maximum day
demand?

MR. CRADDICK: We have these charts where we track
what the total usage is. What I did was I went back through a
year and that was -- this doesn't include the ag park -- but
that was the number that we picked out of there from actual
system demand.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Over the course of the last
year, on at least one day, there was a demand of -- a daily
demand of 10.4 MGD?

MR. CRADDICK: Yes.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: A 24-hour demand?

MR. CRADDICK: Yes.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: During the summer when you have
less rainfall, what is the trend in terms of the demand? What
does the demand curve look like? I guess is my question.

MR. CRADDICK: It definitely goes up. We're running
9, 10, you know, in that range. It's definitely higher during
the summer.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: So a demand in the neighborhood
of 10 MGD is not an unusual situation?

MR. CRADDICK: No. No, it's what the system peaks
at right now.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: To clarify, you mentioned
something about two existing meters that are large meters, that
are not being used and you're concerned if those were used, you
would basically utilize what you are characterizing as the
surplus?

MR. CRADDICK: They could -- no, no, not the
surplus. This item No. 3 in the additional factors, one board
member said that we probably should not be setting aside water
for unused meters, and I tend to agree with him because I know
there are some out there that can't be used. But on the same
token, I know there's some big ones that currently aren't being
used, that -- I mean, we had one of them in our last board
meeting.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: That was part of the 0.15?

MR. CRADDICK: Yeah, that could be used. So it's a
very real possibility.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: It wasn't clear to me -- I
followed you up to a point, but I didn't really understand how
you got to your ultimate conclusion of having basically 200,000
gallons per day available.

MR. CRADDICK: I believe there's an excess of .4
million gallons a day. But the only thing we really have done
is doing that Haiku well, and if we take its .5 million gallons
a day capacity and, say, apply the factor that we do to
everybody else, the .45, you end up with 200,000 gallons. And
that's a reasonable number to give out.
 Even though you think you may have more, you
probably want to watch it and be a little bit more conservative
and start through the list. You may be able to go all the way
through the list with that extra 100,000 gallons from the
Kaupakalua well. You may be able to go all the way through the
list with 300,000 gallons of water.
 So to push the edge and try and go to 400- or even
500,000 gallons, you know, without seeing the reaction, I would
want to have a little history and see the reaction first,
before we just went whole hog.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: I guess my last question is, I
believe you made the comment that the court order or the
findings of the court or the ruling of the court basically
included a limitation that meters -- or new meters could not be
issued based upon reliance on the usage of the H'poko wells.
Did you say something to that effect?

MR. CRADDICK: There is something in there that says
you cannot issue new meters based on that consumption, but it
does allow that to be used for peaking. So I would leave it up
to you whether that peaking number is what you are issuing it
off of. I'm trying to base it on capacity that we put in at
Haiku, and I'm not basing it on capacity from Hamakuapoko.
Because if we did that, then we multiply that 1.5 times the .45
and say that's what we're going to give meters off of.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: I was hoping that the
corporation counsel would be here because that's perhaps a
question that needs to be addressed to him, given the fact that
you are basically asking the board to establish a policy
regarding the use of the H'poko wells as a justification of
issuing meters -- as part of the justification for issuing
meters, and I'm a little nervous about that, to be honest with
you, David.
 Although I do note that your analysis indicates that
during, quote, normal, unquote, times, there is substantial
amount of water available. Then I think it becomes a question
of, you know, are people including the existing consumers that
are willing to be subject to limitations during times of
drought emergency.
Did I see your hand up? Please state --

MR. STARR: Can we have a very short recess?

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Five-minute recess.

(A recess was taken.)

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Are we ready? I would like to
reconvene the meeting of the Committee of the Whole of the
Board of Water Supply. We have heard David explain his
analysis. Are there any other questions from board members?
Mr. Tagorda?

MR. TAGORDA: Just a follow-up, Mr. Chair, thank
you. David, I have really a great concern about the 8.2 MGD
that you can produce at Wailoa ditch. The thing is, there are
times that during drought, that Wailoa ditch goes down to 20
MGD and when that ditch is down to 20 MGD, you tell me how can
you get 20 MGD to your treatment plant facility.

MR. CRADDICK: You don't need 20, we only need 8.

MR. TAGORDA: I know, but how can you -- you seen
that weir is very low.

MR. CRADDICK: What it is, is there's two inlets to
the treatment plant. One, the old one before the treatment
plant was built, and the one with the travelling screen. The
travelling screen, if we just used that inlet, we cannot bring
in 8.2 million gallons.
 But if we open the other one, what we do is --
usually there's a lot of sediment and dirt in there and what we
do is we don't -- we actually shut the treatment plant down.
We open that other gate up, it will flush all the dirt out. It
goes back to the ditch. And once that all cleans up, then we
just open both intakes and we can actually bring in about 12
million gallons a day into our treatment plant.
 Even when the ditch is at around 12 million gallons,
we can drain the ditch, because we're right on the bottom of
the ditch with that other intake. That's why we don't use it
normally, because we scoop all the gravel and dirt in it, and
that's why we don't use it on a normal basis.

MR. TAGORDA: The 8.2 really is not the conservative
approach, though.

MR. CRADDICK: Well, that's --

MR. TAGORDA: It's not a conservative approach; it's
not a conservative number, David.

MR. CRADDICK: Only not conservative if you -- I'm
trying to think what could go out of the treatment plant. We
got two air compressors there, so if one goes, we can still
operate. We've got three feed pumps, so if any one of those
goes, we can still operate.
 I suppose the computer itself could go down and that
would just be the time it took to get the same computer up from
one of the other facilities to use it there, because it's the
same computer. So there's a lot of redundancy built into the
plan itself. But yeah, you are operating at maximum capacity
at that point, there's no doubt about that. There's not a lot
of room for error.

MR. TAGORDA: I want to be cautious. I hope our
director is correct in his finding, and I'm glad -- I will be
glad to issue meters out of his finding. I have nothing
against that. And I share the sentiments of my colleagues
here, that it's about time that we issue meters Upcountry for
those people who have been waiting for many years.
 But again, I would like you to define to me source
capacity, David, because not a lot of these people on the
priority list is going to get meters because of problems like
distribution lines you're having. It's right here. You cannot
deliver water to them even when you have water available.

MR. CRADDICK: No, but that's in their control. If
they want to put the line in, then that's certainly something
they can do, and it's not dependent on the source. All of this
Kula rule shortage situation was all a result of source. The
distribution system has always been a problem Upcountry since
the early 1900s.

MR. TAGORDA: Help me understand what the source
capacity is and define it for us in your terminology.

MR. CRADDICK: I'm not sure what you mean by
"source."

MR. TAGORDA: I want you to tell me what source
capacity -- what does source capacity mean to you? Is it just
surface groundwater? Or do you include treatment plant
capacity? Storage capacity? Transmission line capacity?

MR. CRADDICK: Source is source. The supply of
water. It's not your ability to distribute it. It's a
separate issue. That's something that the individual can
control.

MR. TAGORDA: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR: Yes. Seeing that our corp counsel is
here and available to answer our questions, I would like to
pose a question to him, and that is, we have before us a
document that's basically justifying that there's excess water
available in the Upcountry system, and it's using in that
justification the fact that there is 13.8 million gallons a day
available under drought conditions, which is more than we need
under drought conditions, and in that 13.8 number is included
in Hamakuapoko wells No. 1 and 2.
 So it's my contention that we're being asked to
issue meters based on Hamakuapoko wells 1 and 2. We have taken
into account for use -- for peaking use during drought
conditions. I would like to ask Mr. Fukushima whether we can
take those two wells in account for the issuance of meters.

MR. FUKUSHIMA: First of all, I think it's a policy
question whether you want to include these. With the knowledge
that the usage of the H'poko wells can only be -- the wells can
only be used during times of drought emergency.
 If the board decides that it's appropriate to
include these in the amount of water available, knowing that it
can only be used as -- or during times of drought emergency, or
if the board decides it doesn't want to count these because it
can only be used during periods of drought emergency, I think
that's the board's decision. It's not a legal decision.

MR. STARR: And in the court's ruling, wasn't there
some wording regarding what they could be used for and wasn't
there some wording regarding meter --

MR. FUKUSHIMA: I'm not aware of that. But I do
maintain that how you want to treat the water from the H'poko
wells is a policy decision.

MR. STARR: Do we have the judge's wording available
to us?

MR. FUKUSHIMA: I can make that available to the
members for their review.

MR. STARR: I would like to see that before the
board meeting.

MR. FUKUSHIMA: Sure.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: I think, Howard, putting it
another way, my concern, which is in line with Jonathan's, is
that David is asking the board to support his finding that
there's adequate source based upon the fact that the H'poko
wells are available for use; and that the board would state
that these wells would be used during drought as a basis of
issuing meters. And I think some of us have a problem with
that, and the question as to whether or not that is permitted
under the order of the court.
 So perhaps you can research that. Although you said
you think it's a policy decision, perhaps it would be helpful
if you could clarify that.

MR. FUKUSHIMA: Certainly. Yes, I can review the
court order and see if there's any relation to the board -- any
relation to potential board action relating to H'poko wells.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Thank you.
Mr. Hiranaga?

MR. HIRANAGA: Just a question for the director.
Could you give us a brief status update on the progress of the
Pookela well?

MR. CRADDICK: Herb? I believe the contract is up
in corp counsel's office with the consultant -- for the
consultant. Herb?

MR. KOGASAKA: Yes, I think it is. I think it was
sent up to corporation counsel for review right now.

MR. HIRANAGA: For the general meeting, could you
give us a more definitive status on the progress of that?

MR. CRADDICK: I'm hoping in the staff report it's
going to be one of the line items that the contract is signed.

MR. STARR: Has a consultant been selected?

MR. CRADDICK: Yes.

MR. STARR: Who is that?

MR. CRADDICK: Royce Fukunaga. I figured he was far
enough away from all the controversy I have been involved with
over the years. He was the best one to go with.

MR. HIRANAGA: Another question.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Mr. Hiranaga?

MR. HIRANAGA: Mr. Craddick, could you explain this
paragraph on page 3, the third one, it begins with, "Also,
considered in the evaluation...."

MR. CRADDICK: Well, people talk here at the board
about the inadequate distribution system, and I won't disagree
with any of this. There's a lot of the distribution system
that's inadequate. Also as consumption increases, the issue of
contact time at Kamaole Weir has been talked about. That will
become an issue as time goes on.
But these factors here, as they are presented here,
I don't believe they are source related, at least not at this
time. That's something that we can do something about in any
case. Or even the individual that may come in and apply, if
some individual is going to come in and apply, that will cause
that contact time to go up, then they may have to provide that
additional storage.

MR. HIRANAGA: I guess, primarily, the last sentence
of that paragraph, if you could explain that.

MR. CRADDICK: One of the other issues was whether
the -- like, for instance, the Dowling well and the Haiku well,
how do we actually get the water into our system, knowing that
below the Haiku well, no matter how much we try, the
consumption is what the consumption is.
 So if we don't put a booster pump on to push the
water up in the system to get it to be used in a larger area,
we're not going to be able to increase the consumption of that
well, no matter how hard we tried. Same thing with the
Kaupakalua well, the only way to get additional water out of
that well, above and beyond what the system is using, is
basically dumped into the ditch right now.
 So whatever the system draws, it will be able to
supply all of that, because we can supply that water up to
Kokomo tank. But there probably is some capacity there, and I
think the most we have ever pumped out of there was 1.1 or 1.2
million gallons in a day, out of the Dowling well. I don't
think we have gone beyond that.
 So that last .4 million gallons, there might not be
any way to use that except by dumping it into the ditch and
bringing it down to the treatment plant. That's why I don't
say that we can use 1.5 million during a drought because right
now there's maybe no way to get it.
 Or let's say we did dump it into the ditch during a
drought and we have our treatment plant going to capacity, we
can't use that extra water anyways, but once we hit 16 and we
had to actually cut our draw from the ditch below 8, then
possibly that number we could dump into the ditch and we would
still have capacity to treat. We would be able to treat it at
that point, because we would have to cut back what we were
taking from the ditch. So if we add more into the ditch, then
we would be able to take more.

MR. HIRANAGA: The last sentence says, During low
rainfall conditions -- "These extraneous factors can be
addressed during low rainfall conditions because the Department
is able to obtain hoses or set up temporary tanks resulting in
full utilization of water source that is available."
 Are you saying that if we were to issue meters
that -- during low rainfall, we would be susceptible to the
need to set up temporary tanks or hoses?

MR. CRADDICK: We might have to, yes. As we got
down to those real extreme cases. What it comes to, really,
Kent, is how quickly is Hawaiian Homes and Dowling's project
going to develop in comparison to how fast the board moves to
getting additional sources on line.
 By Hawaiian Homes' own estimate, they expect maybe
50 people out of 400 would move in, in the next year or so.
And then it will probably drop down to a rate of about 20
people a year. So you can see even Hawaiian Homes doesn't
expect that they are going to move in very fast.
 On Dowling's project, it may be a shorter time
period. It may only be five years there that we're looking at
for his build out. But --

MR. HIRANAGA: How do you differentiate between
drought conditions and low rainfall conditions?

MR. CRADDICK: They are the same thing.

MR. HIRANAGA: We're currently in a drought
situation, so if we were to issue more meters, would we then
expose ourselves to the possibility of having to set up
temporary tanks?

MR. CRADDICK: If we -- after the Pookela well, if
we sat and did nothing while Hawaiian Homes came on and
Dowling's project was built out to full capacity, we probably
would get in a situation where we would have to do that.

MR. HIRANAGA: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Any other questions? Jonathan?

MR. STARR: I have a question to the chair, which
is, I think you understand my feeling, which is, I don't really
want to take any action to accept this report; but I would be
willing to recommend that just without anything else being
taken into consideration, that some meters could be issued to
waiting list people, just based straight on the Haiku well,
which that never had meters issued against it. Is there any
recommended action that the chair would like to see here?

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Before I answer that, Jonathan,
I have one question to David. Which is, if your analysis
indicates that you have 14.4 MGD during normal available times
and if you look at the sources, the breakdown of the sources,
it seems that barring malfunction at either the plant or the
well, that this is a source that can be delivered, virtually,
all of the time. Is that an accurate statement?

MR. CRADDICK: Yes. It may be 85 percent
reliability at Piiholo up there.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: I guess the chair's feeling is
that if you look at the analysis, it would seem as though there
is basis to support the director's findings. However, I do
have a couple of concerns. Number one is that I am
uncomfortable with the analysis, as has been pointed out by
member Starr, which relies on our taking certain actions
relative to the H'poko wells as a basis of issuing meters. And
I'm also uncomfortable with the notion of issuing meters while
we're in a drought emergency.
 And the chair's feeling is that this matter should
be deferred pending, perhaps, David resubmitting his analysis
that deals more with normal conditions than with drought
conditions as a basis of issuing additional meters. That would
be my own personal feeling.
Mr. Fukushima?

MR. FUKUSHIMA: Mr. Chairman, if I may comment. We
would also like to caution the board regarding the notion that
board meters or meters can be issued off the list. Again, we
wish to remind you that we have submitted a proposed rule which
deals with how we are going to handle meter requests for
individuals that are on that priority list.
 We think it may be unwise to start issuing meters
without that rule in place which implements the priority list
that the department has been keeping over a number of years.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Thank you, Mr. Fukushima.
Mr. Nobriga?

MR. NOBRIGA: I tend to echo our esteemed counsel's
concerns. Although I can recognize the member's concern about
the way the information and data was compiled, the net result
is that there is not sufficient additional capacity to satisfy
every and all requests to the affected areas within the scope
of the Upcountry system.
And I would diligently urge that we review and pass
back out the proposed rule governing issuance of meters within
the affected areas, because of the unreliance on a perfect case
scenario.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Thank you, Mr. Nobriga.
Any other thoughts relative to this matter by
members of the committee?

MR. STARR: Motion to defer.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: There's a motion to defer. Is
there a second?

MR. TAGORDA: Second.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Moved and seconded that we defer
this matter. Any further discussion? If not, all those in
favor say "aye."

(A chorus of ayes.)

Opposed?

MR. NOBRIGA: Nay.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: Five ayes and one nay. Motion
to defer. The chair would suggest perhaps that David continue
to analyze this issue and perhaps take a little different tact
on this.

MR. CRADDICK: My recommendation would be to go to
court and get the restrictions removed.

CHAIRMAN NAKAMURA: There being no further business
to come before the committee, the meeting is adjourned. Thank
you.

(The proceedings were concluded at 10:35 a.m.)

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